Does high magic = high tech?

Re: A Mixed Bag

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
Why Jürgen Hubert, I had no thought of your setting in my head when I wrote the original post.

Though I really do appreciate your elaboration on the diverse nature of your much discussed setting.

Hey, no problem - I just love to plug my setting... :D

When I talked about fae forests I had in mind an idea of a druid dominated society in which nature really would be kind and loving. People blessed by the society would wander during the day gathering fruit from whatever trees were in season, need no protection from the beasts who protected them and left enough meat from their kills to provide them with protein, gather clean water from special vines, leave the waste to be absorbed by the hyperactive forests, and generally lead the life imagined by impressionist painters when they painted Polynesians. They would 'pay' for their paradise with massive prayer ceremonies at the proper lunar moment and children given up to be druids to maintain it and rangers to guard it from external threat.

Another thought: We all know that magic can create entirely new species, which can sometimes breed true. Instead of just creating more monsters to menace the villagers, how about changing living beings - both plants and animals - to help you survive and prosper in your environment?

Indeed, it could be argued that some people in fantasy worlds have already done this. I've recently submitted an article to Pyramid Magazine called:

"Elves: A case study of Transhumanism in Fantasy Worlds". If it gets accepted, you might want to take a look at it... ;)

(I'm still pondering whether I should make elves in Urbis an artificial race created eons ago by human wizards who wanted to tinker with their offspring's genes, but that's not that important in "modern times"...)

Wizard would be something like the Nexus towers, nod to Jürgen, or nation of villas and academies in which non-wizards are pledged to the support of particular wizarding 'families' and enjoy the benefit of cutting edge magical items in return for making the Wizard's lives as comfortable as possible, beyond what the wizards could do for themselves, and generally working to protect them from having to deal with nations that wouldn't understand their need to plumb the depths of knowledge.

If you want to get a good idea on how wizards might live, read "The Domain of Arnheim", by Edgar Allen Poe...
 
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Regarding the "high magic = high technology" issue: I think it depends a lot on precisely what kind of magic we are talking about.

"Standard D&D" magic, for example, depends on the powers of highly skilled individuals. Their feats are impressive, but not easily reproduceable by laymen, and again, magic items can only be created by them.

Modern-day technology, on the other hand, requires thousands of people to create the components. But once the manufacturing process is started, these "Items of Power" can be churned out in mass quantities, and are generally easily useable by almost everyone.

But let's use another example of magic: Imagine a strongly animistic cosmology, where helpful spirits inhabit allmost every item, and "magic" would be persuading them to do your bidding.

Something similar might actually happen with technology in the future. A good example of this is the Transhuman Space setting, where many people essentially treat the myriad AIs inhabiting their tools and household appliances as friendly and helpful spirits! (And sometimes, these items might need to be "exorcised" if an advirus or a Gypsy infomorph takes them over...)
 

I agree Juergen that we do need to define terms for "magic = tech". You can do a rather jokey version of the world, where magic substitutes for all technology of the modern world. But it wouldn't be easy with the standard D&D magic system.

However, for myself, in my Shattered World campaign I am exploring the idea of a more widespread magic. In it, I am beginning to look at how having access to simple magics can help craftsmen and professionals in their work. In the larger cities, a fair number of craftsmen are Expert-Wizards, members of magical schools that specialise in the magic of industry. At the moment I am treating the setting as being at the beginning of a Renaissance, but where it is magic that is leveraging the advancement.

So far it's been mostly flavour. But then again, so far the PCs are far away from the most advanced lands. this means I have time to work out what I want to do! :)
 

IMC magic is a living thing. If you get enough of it together in one place, it can "awaken". Worse, any attempt to automate magic inevitably creates a new intelligence -- perhaps not human-equivalent, but conscious. This may have been the origin of Demons.

IMHO there has to be a reason why magic != tech, and why magic isn't mass produceable.

-- Nifft
 

Nifft said:
IMHO there has to be a reason why magic != tech, and why magic isn't mass produceable.

Magic is magic. It can be anything. If you want to have mass produceable magic, you would get GURPS Technomancer - and a damn fine game setting as well.

Magic, as far as anyone knows, doesn't exist in the real world. Therefore, we don't have to make any assumptions about how magic "works". For the purposes of RPGs, magic can work differently in each setting. And it says nowhere that magic can't be mass-produced...
 

I think there is a tendancy here to mean one of two things when you say 'magic'. Either you mean, 'as practiced in my campaign world' or else you are defining magic in terms of a particular set of religious beliefs.

But, since we don't know what magic is, we can go ahead and say magic is anything that people have said it is. We don't have to say magic is a life force. We don't have to say magic is the exclusive providence of mages. In fact, if we are playing D&D, we don't often say these things. We don't often say what magic is at all beyond defining what it can do. Whether you think this is good for a setting or not is pretty much your opinion. Magic can be given all sorts of flavors and still be 'magic'.

I think D&D sets up a situation where high magic could become ubiquitious. It is not necessary for the common man to understand or be able to create 'wondrous items'. The common man does not understand a microwave or a television set. Increasingly, the common man does not even understand a car. (I can fix quite a few things on a car built 40 years ago, but almost nothing on one that is built recently.) All that is necessary is that the common man have the usage of the wonderous item.

There was recently a discussion provoked by my assertion that permanent Teleport Circles broke the social dynamics of standard D&D fantasy worlds. There existance should cause a D&D world to not look like anything in human history. But similar assertions can be made for an almost limitless list of D&D items that we insert without a blink.

What sort of world would it really be if we could make Decanters of Endless Water? Would sanitation and running water develop much earlier and in a greater number of cultures? Surely a couple Decanters of Endless Water make no more of a daunting construction challenge than the Aqueducts that watered ancient Rome. What sort of world would it be if you really could make Clay and Stone golems? Imagine you could make a tireless, unthirsting, beasts of burden? Forget uber-guards. Imagine you could replace cranes with stone men! What advances would this encourage and what would it discourage? The invention of the waterwheel, windmill, gear box, and the block and tackle were all inhibited by the precense of abundent slave labor in the ancient world. How much more so if the King could command the alligence of 400 Stone Golems? And of what value would an army be in the field against the King if he could? Of what value is the Phlanyx when one man with wand of fireballs can consume the whole line? Are wands of fireball and 5th level wizards really rarer than armies of hundreds of men? What is the point of a mass cavalry charge if a Wall of Fire can be errected between you and the foe?

I almost hesitate to keep this up because we are starting to get into my setting, but seeing how it is unlikely I'll ever have time and oppurtunity to publish...

If there are potions of youth, do aristocrats ever really need to die? If you really have vampires and liches, how likely is it that they _would not_ rule empires openly or in secret? If you really have half-celestials and demi-gods, wouldn't you really have divine right of Kings? Consider the effect of druidic spells on agriculture. The development of hay did not occur until sometime in the 7th or 8th centuries. Hay! Consider just how much more it would have been delayed if someone could walk around making plants grow or changing the weather! Crop rotation wasn't really widely implemented in Europe until the 11th and 12th centuries. How much latter would this science have been discovered had magical means of gauranteeing bountious crops existed? Contrarily, perhaps it would have been intuitive considering someone could just ask a plant (or a god!) about how it felt about things. Would pestilance be as much of a problem in a world where the gods daily cured disease? Any disease. Would you have leperousy colonies if the curing of lepers was not the most miraculous of signs? (consider how much of the Jewish legal code revolved arround preventing the spread of leperousy and other skin ailements (like small pox))

First edition D&D had the problem of explaining why low level magic items were so common given how hard they were to create. Third edition solved that problem, and now the question is 'Why are they so rare?'.

And imagine what items would really have economic value to the common person. Forget wands of magic missiles. How about wonderous items of 'clean', 'chill', 'heat', 'spice', 'gather', etc.? (all duplicatable by the Prestidigtation cantrip). Once you make one, it doesn't go away. If your campaign world is thousands of years old, and the population is stable (or reduced from the glory years of the past!) as it so often is, why aren't these things everywhere? Why aren't all lords drinking out of cups that chill the wine with ice and mugs that warm the cider and tea? Why aren't there ice cream vendors if you can summon cold with a simple spell? At what point is it reasonable for a wealthy neighborhood to start installing everburning street lights? (This was an even more serious question back when continual light was free, something that I think the 3rd ed. designers realized.)

I could go on forever in this vein probably, but you get the point. Magic could become technology without duplicating the technology of our world. Something that we do would seem wonderous and 'impossible' to them, and vica versa. We need not imagine that a wizarding world would look like Harry Potter with magical crystal ball television sets and other silliness. But, nothing stops wizards from networking over thier crystal balls, and nothing stops them from setting up teleport circles to facillate the business ventures that fund thier research, and so on and so forth.
 

I mostly agree with Celebrim. In my mind, who advanced a society is depends on the amount of energy they can produce and how efficiently it can be used. In my mind, magic can produce a <i>lot</i> of energy, especially the way it is treated in most "high fantasy" game . . . where high fantasy generally means that to have an experienced, effective character that person is carrying around a small mystical arsenal. PLUS, in most D&D games -- the ones that sort of willy-nilly use things from all the core books and a double dozen supplements -- there's all sorts of things that once you put them in could concievably lead to massive changes. Like Decanters of Endless Water and Teleport Circles for just two of literally <i>hundreds</i> of examples.

To create a fantasy world where this is <i>not</i> the case, you'll have to get pretty radical. In my first post, here, one of the ways I proposed this is to have being a magician (be it divine or arcane) have mystical and psychological reasons for not wanting to see the average people advance. Perhaps becoming a powerful magician makes the magician indifferent to the suffering of others, for instance, as a side effect of the forces they play with.

Other reasons could be metaphysical. Perhaps there is only a limited amount of magical energy produced by the universe and too many magic widgets will start to deplete the magic faster than the world can rejuvenate it. This would be a compelling reason for magicians to limit the number of magic items they create -- after all, if too many magic swords in the world would eliminate your ability to cast your most powerful magic spells wouldn't you think twice before making one? This limitation could as easily apply to the gods, so clerics would also have an eye to insuring that too much magic wasn't being drained away by the presence of magic items.

Other reasons could be . . . well, you can just get far out. Take what I call Faerie World (a campaign I fully intend to run some day): the world is populated by immortal, absurdly powerful creatures who evaluate things totally differently than we do. Since they're more or less incapable of feeling worry, pain, hunger and fatigue (at least as we mortals do), the things that drive us to technological and magical prowess would mean nothing to them. Who cares if the crops come in? They don't. They'll continue their wild feasts one way or the other. So they could well burn all the fields for reasons unknown and perhaps incomprehensible to mortals. The same can be said to be true, probably, of any world that has immoral beings that control the world, and even celestials could have a radically different of what "good" means than even the best human mortals. I mean, what if the celestials got together one day and decided that towns with more than five thousand people were fundamentally evil? I know some people who would argue, roughly, that cities are evil, too, so it would even make some <i>sense</i> to some people.

To ramble on a bit, consider this: a bunch of celestials get together and decide that technology is too neutral for them. People who use technology to feed themselves, to heal their wounds, etc., no longer have as much motivation to patronize the local good clerics as before, so technology leads towards evil. They arbitrarily set a level of technology that can't be exceeded before very unsympathetic guys with flaming swords start reminding people "angel of death" is a legitimate term. The same could be true of any system, any system at all, that introduces too much efficient energy use in a society (decanters of endless water being used to power ships in any numbers, organized teleport circle clusters, etc.) -- it would be forbidden <I>by the good guys</i>. They'd tell people, y'know, "Seek not more than you need to make you happy." Lots of people would buy it if angels came down and reminded them of the truth of it, from time to time -- it would swiftly become part of the culture. Especially after the purges and re-education.

Fiends might also benefit from this system -- they'd always have something to offer to people. "Want to escape the tyranny of this world? I've got this recipe for something I like to call <I>gunpowder</i>." That, in the end, the gunpowder will be surpressed by the celestials might not be seen as a disadvantage! The fiends might shrug and say, "Great, now I can use that same trick <i>again.</i> Thank you, Mr. Angel."

But give the amount of freedom most D&D games seem to have, there'd be deuced little to stop what Celebrim talked about from happening.
 

Magic makes work easier than it would be to do 'manually'.

Technology makes work easier than it would be to do 'manually'.

The difference is we think of them differently. 'High-technology' usually makes widely available advanced technology, whereas 'High-magick' has a nice variety of meaning but at one point can simply mean a handful of powerful wizards exist in the world.

It's mostly the similarity between making work easier that people draw the progression pathes.
 

I think that the real issue isn't magic versus technology. The main difference is the huge difference in the levels of INTRINSIC power.

Think about the difference between a first level commoner and a 20th level character of a PC class, especially a spell caster. I could sneak up on a sleeping Hero, apply a coup de grace, and they'd still probably live. The same explosion that kills most people barely injures them. If a spell caster wants to change something, it changes because of their will itself, not because their will is backed by lots of money or a political position that sets other factors in motion. I can find tons of information using libraries, the internet, etc. However, I depend on lots of other people and machines to do it. A spell can gather similar amounts of info, but doesn't depend on other resources.

The only resources needed to generate power are time and difficulties to overcome.
 

Re: How do you mean indistinguishable?

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
...it seems to me magic is much more its own reward to learn than science or technology is.

Originally posted by Victim
[BI think that the real issue isn't magic versus technology. The main difference is the huge difference in the levels of INTRINSIC power... [/B]

I think these points have not received the recognition they deserve. Scientists do NOT have any intrinsic power. They are, in fact, very much at the mercy of whoever has the money for their very livelihood. And, unlike a wizard, who can be preternaturally scary, scientists have had any teeth they ever had pulled by society's methods of representing them.

The most well-known "scientist" on TV right now is probably the character Ross on "Friends", for God's sake. NOT our finest representative.

Scientists don't have any recourse for getting the funds necessary to increase personal power. Heck, often it's harder than it should be to get the funds necessary to solve global problems.

A wizard, on the other hand, could whip himself up a wand of fireball with his last bit of cash, and then go acquire as much money as he needs.

This is an oversimplification, but I think the point carries at deeper levels of analysis. Wizards acquire PERSONAL POWER. Scientists do not. They may acquire great knowledge, but really, there's no good way for them to aquire POWER.

This would have a SIGNIFICANT impact on the exchange of knowledge and techniques, to say the least.
 

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