Does high magic = high tech?

[WizarDru]

Re: Scientist=shaman=wizard?

I mean is true that I don't have a very intimate knowledge of many machines in my life, but my great grandparents probably knew how to fix everything they owned, more or less, and they were living in a very technological society.

Well, either your grandparents were in an extreme minority or you overestimate their skills. The average person fifty years ago was no more likely to repair a television or radio manually than today, albeit their chances of success were greater, if they could procure the parts. Could the average person have learned? Yes, they could, but the increasing complexity of modern electronic systems have made specialization a necessity. In many cases, modern repair consists of soldering in a replacement part. And even in the 50's, one couldn't make a vacuum tube or CRT at home...he had to buy them from a factory. How they were made and how they actually worked was still a mystery.

Society isn't discouraging you, except to set realistic expectations about what you can reasonably do. The technology to build Ford's car modelling systems is radically different from the cars they use to build it, or the systems used to track it by the police, lojack or the television and radio reports that explain where it is currently stuck.

Now I do recognize that a lot of current model cars are way beyond home fixin at this point, but most computer and electronic problems aren't....

Again, that depends on your definition of 'fixing'. I don't consider soldering in a new resistor to be of the same complexity as manually repairing a cracked CRT tube.

Other differences: very few people expect a scientist to have developed knowledge outside of his or her area of expertise. Wizards and shamans tend to be generalists within their areas of expertise.

You're right, of course, and this is a metagame abstraction that has to be accepted for game-balance purposes. The D&D Fighter is far more skilled with most weapons than any real world analog, but this is accepted as part of 3E's clean design. I would expect a theoretical physicist to be able to understand basic spatial geometry, scientific theory and accepted math principles, regardless of his discipline. I think most consider it reasonable that a Civil Engineer would understand basic Electrical Engineering theory, even if he might have to look it up and might not be up on all of it. A necromancer will still know how to cast 'light', as it's a basic discipline of his order. This is more of a flavor argument.

Becoming a scientist is often far more involved, what with needing a good initial education to get the props to go to the good school to get the good education to go to grad school to maybe get the good job.

No more so than any other discipline. I know several scientists who got the good job before grad school, for example. The cleric still needs to be accepted by an order, and be possessed of genuine motives for his diety. The wizard still needs to find a master, develop his talents, acquire his equipment and so forth. We're not talking about sorcerors or clerics, but wizards, and wizards are a closer analog, IMHO.

On the other hand, a scientist can write out his theories and, as long as he or she isn't totally obtuse, pretty much communicate them to anyone who is familiar with the field. A wizard who only knows second level spells ain't gonna get fireball save he or she has gained enough insight through both professional and general experience to have a mind open for the power.

To paraphrase Newton, the wizard stands on the shoulders of giants. Earlier wizards unlocked the secrets of the fireball spell....but he has to master it himself. Harry Potter learns new spells as he becomes more experienced. That the D&D reference ties this to levels doesn't invalidate the idea, just limits the advancement superficially in a way that doesn't have the right level of verisimilitude. He isn't going to be able to create a fireball, it's true...but he could invent a lower level equivalent...if he felt it warranted the effort. And he'd know what he could do based on the work of his forbears...view that as a metagame concept or as a conceptual one, I think it works either way.

I don't think that they're an exact analog, by any measure...but I think that 'wizard = scientist' has a lot of merit. YMMV.

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Re: Scientist=shaman=wizard?

To paraphrase Newton, the wizard stands on the shoulders of giants. Earlier wizards unlocked the secrets of the fireball spell....but he has to master it himself.

In that way, scientists and wizards are quite similar -- but modern "commoners" don't need to master calculus to build and use a 9mm wand of magic missiles.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Re: Re: Re: Scientist=shaman=wizard?

In that way, scientists and wizards are quite similar -- but modern "commoners" don't need to master calculus to build and use a 9mm wand of magic missiles.

9mm = command word item

wand of MM = spell trigger

Your example fails because a wand of magic missiles requires someone trained in its use. If you handed the average modern day thug a disassembled rocket launcher without instructions, that's about equivalent to a wand of MM.



However, if you made a charged wondrous item that could cast magic missile as a command word, then your analogy would hold up. That would be the same as a 9mm.

 

[s/LaSH]

Here's a thought: How many particle physicists have to build a hydrodam and personally lay two hundred kilometers of cross-country power line to power their handmade particle accelerator? About zero; they get help. A wizard, on the other hand, has to both gather and manipulate mystic energy to create spell effects. OK, so spell effects aren't so huge, but they're still pretty impressive for one person. Even if it's possible in game terms, the kind of dedication and genius required to actually become a wizard shouldn't be in the hands of the common folk. And that's assuming wizards and scientists are fairly similar...

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Here's a thought: How many particle physicists have to build a hydrodam and personally lay two hundred kilometers of cross-country power line to power their handmade particle accelerator? About zero; they get help. A wizard, on the other hand, has to both gather and manipulate mystic energy to create spell effects. OK, so spell effects aren't so huge, but they're still pretty impressive for one person.

Obviously, scientists do not have the same capabilities as DnD wizards. Wizards can teleport, while scientists need many people to teleport one particle.

However, the DnD wizard has access to centuries of advanced magical research. They can hop over to the local wizard's guild to buy a Fireball scroll. Real world scientists do not have this luxury.

However, can you imagine that in, say, two hundred years, you could go down to a drugstore and buy a particle accelerator?
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Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is less a detail-oriented mandate than a loose comparison between the two.

Both a wizard and a scientist have similiar drives, goals, methods and effects. Both are rational, both are driven to uncover new knowledge and ideas, and...

Both are completely misunderstood by the general populace.
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And if you are familiar with this:

Both are NTs.

Even if it's possible in game terms, the kind of dedication and genius required to actually become a wizard shouldn't be in the hands of the common folk.

Trying to keep the plebians in the gutter, are we?

Seems a bit elitist, considering all you need is a 10 Int to cast the most basic of spells.
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The real world equivalent is learning A^2 + B^2 = C^2

Should "common folk" have access to this?

 

[WizarDru]

Here's a thought: How many particle physicists have to build a hydrodam and personally lay two hundred kilometers of cross-country power line to power their handmade particle accelerator? About zero; they get help.

Well, CB answered this above, but I thought I'd just add this: how many particle physicists have to rediscover the basis of particle physics every time a new one starts out? Answer: none. As Newton said: 'the shoulders of giants.' Why should wizards be any different? Who says they have to acquire everything themselves? They almost certainly never do, any more than a landed knight builds his manor or castle, or invents new fighting styles purely on his own. This is why there are Mage Guilds, and many, many adventures centering around this very conceit (The wizard Foozle needs a Pheonix's feather to comlete his magic doodad; Go Forth, brave heroes!) Do some work this way? Surely. But most likely don't...and even those who do still learn from self-teaching eventually must seek out other sources to excel. The lesson is that no man/wizard/scientist is an island.

Again, the comparison is valid, unless drilled down to a minute level of abstraction. For 20,000 feet comparisons, it's just dandy, IMHO.