I recently read an interesting statistic: in the last 15 years, the number of students graduating with a bachelor's degree in engineering dropped 50%, to 12,400. (I assume this is for just the US.) If a modern nation of almost 300,000,000 people, with mandatory education, only generates 12,000 to 18,000 new engineers each year, imagine how few wizards a largely pre-literate society of 300,000 people would generate.
Does high magic = high tech?
- Thread starter Dr. Strangemonkey
- Start date
Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
Thorn Wars
Hey Jürgen Hubert, sorry it took me so long to respond. Sounds like a very 'cool' use of the flower wars idea. A little less frightening to outside cultures and the participants involved, but no less gruesome. For an added level of paranoia, cities that stop participating in the thorn wars should be viewed as common targets and game by the other cities involved in the culture.
I been thinking about some of the milpolitic aspects of the nexus towers. I would think that there would be a concerted effort to keep wars low casualty since population is one of the major spoils of fighting.
There might be individual military strategies built around hurting the enemies population but weapons and formations that could only achieve mass slaughter would be anathema to anyone with a military ethic who owned a nexus tower. Probably more so than in our own world in which people are a less direct resource.
I don't know about the poetry comparison with magic. There is a lot of that involved but magic still seems to have more formal systems. Such that the results are replicatable only with understanding, though that understanding is insight based. I would think it compares more to certain forms of mysticism in our own world.
I really like the performance aspect of magic, though. Too few people actually role-play what it must be like to see a wizard cast a spell. I always want it to be either semi-tai-chi or really wu-xia where people have to dance all over the place. I mean it has to be active enough that armor, which is designed to be used in combat, suddenly becomes a hinderance.
Hey Jürgen Hubert, sorry it took me so long to respond. Sounds like a very 'cool' use of the flower wars idea. A little less frightening to outside cultures and the participants involved, but no less gruesome. For an added level of paranoia, cities that stop participating in the thorn wars should be viewed as common targets and game by the other cities involved in the culture.
I been thinking about some of the milpolitic aspects of the nexus towers. I would think that there would be a concerted effort to keep wars low casualty since population is one of the major spoils of fighting.
There might be individual military strategies built around hurting the enemies population but weapons and formations that could only achieve mass slaughter would be anathema to anyone with a military ethic who owned a nexus tower. Probably more so than in our own world in which people are a less direct resource.
I don't know about the poetry comparison with magic. There is a lot of that involved but magic still seems to have more formal systems. Such that the results are replicatable only with understanding, though that understanding is insight based. I would think it compares more to certain forms of mysticism in our own world.
I really like the performance aspect of magic, though. Too few people actually role-play what it must be like to see a wizard cast a spell. I always want it to be either semi-tai-chi or really wu-xia where people have to dance all over the place. I mean it has to be active enough that armor, which is designed to be used in combat, suddenly becomes a hinderance.
WizarDru
Adventurer
mmadsen said:
That number, in and of itself, is meaningless, of course. Considering the huge number of engineers already engaged in the workforce, the poor economy and the relative decrease in the necessity and available jobs for engineers, it's not necessarily indicative of anything. Last year I worked alongside of 550 other engineers who all got their walking papers when Lockheed closed our division, so I can assure you that their is no shortage of engineers, merely a shortage of work for them.
Those numbers mean nothing to us without comparing against a host of other numbers. They may indicate a trend...or they may tell a different story than you think.
Don't forget that Bards, Clerics, Sorcerors, Paladins and even rangers can make magic items with relative ease. The low cost of scrolls and potions mean that most Rogues can use them reliably, and the world is once again dominated by the magic haves versus the magic have-nots. I once again assert that the D&D world simply breaks down if you look to closely at it from a realistic economic, social or political aspect. Specific campaign settings address the issue for better or worse, but the vanilla D&D game just doesn't bear such scrutiny.
Jürgen Hubert
First Post
Re: Thorn Wars
Good point. The priests of Sarush probably have a strong vested interest in keeping those "games" going - they organize them, after all, and it's a good way to influence the cities. So sanctions against the cities who won't participate would certainly be appropriate...
Certainly. After all, most civilians aren't really a threat - you want to go after the leaders and spellcasters, and take out the enemy nexus towers. Killing the civies is just... inefficient.
Standard "military" strategy when you want to take over an enemy city is probably to infiltrate the city over a long time and build up your own circle of supporters. When it comes to war, you can use them to start unrest and chaos, which makes it much harder for the leaders to defend the city. And in this chaos, it becomes much easier to achieve your own objectives.
On the other hand, controlling "strategic resources" (mines, plantations, canals, railways, and so on) far away from nexus towers calls for more "traditional" warfare - but even then, there's a definite tendency to "special ops" stunts. Killing the enemy leaders is much more effective than just slaughtering the grunts - even if they get resurrected (and they usually do), this takes time...
I really have to write an essay on warfare in Urbis one of these days.
Dr. Strangemonkey said:
Good point. The priests of Sarush probably have a strong vested interest in keeping those "games" going - they organize them, after all, and it's a good way to influence the cities. So sanctions against the cities who won't participate would certainly be appropriate...
Certainly. After all, most civilians aren't really a threat - you want to go after the leaders and spellcasters, and take out the enemy nexus towers. Killing the civies is just... inefficient.
Standard "military" strategy when you want to take over an enemy city is probably to infiltrate the city over a long time and build up your own circle of supporters. When it comes to war, you can use them to start unrest and chaos, which makes it much harder for the leaders to defend the city. And in this chaos, it becomes much easier to achieve your own objectives.
On the other hand, controlling "strategic resources" (mines, plantations, canals, railways, and so on) far away from nexus towers calls for more "traditional" warfare - but even then, there's a definite tendency to "special ops" stunts. Killing the enemy leaders is much more effective than just slaughtering the grunts - even if they get resurrected (and they usually do), this takes time...
I really have to write an essay on warfare in Urbis one of these days.
Last edited:
ConcreteBuddha
First Post
I did a paper once that said:
Wizard = Shaman = Scientist
It had nothing to do with DnD, just the real world. I illustrated and made a comparision between the shamans of the past and the scientists of today.
More importantly, I explaned the relationship that the layman had with the tools and "scientific advances" that the scientist had created. Namely, how a person uneducated and unspecialized in the specific branch of science that created the advance dealt with the technology.
Example:
My parents do not know exactly how a television works. They know the basics: you plug the TV into the wall, "electricity" flows into the TV, and pictures fly through the air into the antenna. Then they can operate it by clicking the little buttons on a plastic box.
But if you asked them to build a TV from scratch, they'd have no idea where to start. (Besides, going to "TV making school". Or reading a book and making all of the necessary parts.)
My parents attended high school and have AA degrees. They could learn how to make TV's given the time and inclination.
This can be applied equally well to DnD.
Example:
Command word items. The noble layman has no idea how they work, but he knows how to activate the item. He pays money to the mage's boss because the mage makes a horrible salesman, and the mage then uses some of the money to make a better, more streamlined version of the command word item. The old item is discarded and trickles down to the poor.
In a world like DnD, where magic items last forever if protected from destruction, eventually you'd have mass production of everything. The magical version of the printing press, the railroad, the picture box. The magical version of a drill, jackhammer, crane, airplane.
Also, more and more people would turn from being "laymen" to apprentice specialist wizards. Schools and universities would sprout up everywhere. The populace would find it far more profitable to learn a couple levels of wizard than a couple levels of blacksmith, since the competition down the street is crafting battleaxes +1. "Wizardry for Dummies" books would sprout up everywhere.
Most people would not know how to cast Time Stop, but who cares? They can create Books of Copying, which are so much more profitable. Bladed Chariot of Plowing. Animated Brooms of Sweeping. Mighty Axe of Wood Chopping. The populace knows what 9th level spells can do, and is scared of them, but they trust that the government is keeping an eye out on those that would use them.
.
.
.
.
In essence, any DnD world with magic becomes exactly like the current real world if some artifically-created, constantly-evil monster/god/apocolypse doesn't happen first.
Like the Netherese in FR or Sauron in ME or Darksun or what have you.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Okay I have to tell this story now, since it directly relates to this discussion:
I came home from college one day and my Mom said, "Matt, what have you been doing on the computer?"
"What do you mean?"
"Have you been selling drugs or something?"
"What!?! What are you talking about, Mom?"
"Well, I think the government's found something on our computer...'
"Well let me see it."
She starts up the computer.
"See, I start up this program and it gives me this message..."
"What message?"
" 'This program has performed an illegal operation.' "
Wizard = Shaman = Scientist
It had nothing to do with DnD, just the real world. I illustrated and made a comparision between the shamans of the past and the scientists of today.
More importantly, I explaned the relationship that the layman had with the tools and "scientific advances" that the scientist had created. Namely, how a person uneducated and unspecialized in the specific branch of science that created the advance dealt with the technology.
Example:
My parents do not know exactly how a television works. They know the basics: you plug the TV into the wall, "electricity" flows into the TV, and pictures fly through the air into the antenna. Then they can operate it by clicking the little buttons on a plastic box.
But if you asked them to build a TV from scratch, they'd have no idea where to start. (Besides, going to "TV making school". Or reading a book and making all of the necessary parts.)
My parents attended high school and have AA degrees. They could learn how to make TV's given the time and inclination.
This can be applied equally well to DnD.
Example:
Command word items. The noble layman has no idea how they work, but he knows how to activate the item. He pays money to the mage's boss because the mage makes a horrible salesman, and the mage then uses some of the money to make a better, more streamlined version of the command word item. The old item is discarded and trickles down to the poor.
In a world like DnD, where magic items last forever if protected from destruction, eventually you'd have mass production of everything. The magical version of the printing press, the railroad, the picture box. The magical version of a drill, jackhammer, crane, airplane.
Also, more and more people would turn from being "laymen" to apprentice specialist wizards. Schools and universities would sprout up everywhere. The populace would find it far more profitable to learn a couple levels of wizard than a couple levels of blacksmith, since the competition down the street is crafting battleaxes +1. "Wizardry for Dummies" books would sprout up everywhere.
Most people would not know how to cast Time Stop, but who cares? They can create Books of Copying, which are so much more profitable. Bladed Chariot of Plowing. Animated Brooms of Sweeping. Mighty Axe of Wood Chopping. The populace knows what 9th level spells can do, and is scared of them, but they trust that the government is keeping an eye out on those that would use them.
.
.
.
.
In essence, any DnD world with magic becomes exactly like the current real world if some artifically-created, constantly-evil monster/god/apocolypse doesn't happen first.
Like the Netherese in FR or Sauron in ME or Darksun or what have you.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Okay I have to tell this story now, since it directly relates to this discussion:
I came home from college one day and my Mom said, "Matt, what have you been doing on the computer?"
"What do you mean?"
"Have you been selling drugs or something?"
"What!?! What are you talking about, Mom?"
"Well, I think the government's found something on our computer...'
"Well let me see it."
She starts up the computer.
"See, I start up this program and it gives me this message..."
"What message?"
" 'This program has performed an illegal operation.' "
Last edited:
Jürgen Hubert
First Post
ConcreteBuddha said:
This assumes a stable or shrinking population - if the population grows, there might be only a reduced "trickle-down" effect, or none at all...
But who crafts the Masterwork Items for them? You can't just enchant any plain-vanilla battleaxe, after all...
(And how long does it take the apprentice to get even the first level of "wizard"?)
Last edited:
ConcreteBuddha
First Post
Jürgen Hubert said:
If the population grows, then there are more wizards because the percentage of wizards in the populace stays the same. The amount of magic items continue to grow.
I'm not saying the magic items must trickle down from the top, only that it can trickle down. If the powerful mages and merchants have an incentive for doing so.
Mass production? Wizards enchant the tools to make the axes. How does Craftsman do it? Assembly lines.
How long does it take for a person from the stone age to be completely acclimated with the World Wide Web, all of classical physics, and Kant? From age 4 until age 24 at least.
Hence the reason they had universities and schools. The printing press. The spread of information.
The reason why DnD has so many "commoners" is because they must spend every waking moment worrying about food. Their livelihood does not allow them the luxury of using their brains for the pursuit of knowledge.
Make food plentiful, then what do you have? Lots of commoners with nothing to do but work in service industries and mass-manufacturing.
Hence the Automatic Plow. Hence the Magical Apple Picker. Hence the Arcane-Herd-o-Matic.
Then you'd see lots of people in college, just learning how to use the doodads...
Jürgen Hubert
First Post
ConcreteBuddha said:
The absolute number of magic items might grow, but the relative availability might stagnate - or even shrink!
Make food plentiful, then what do you have? Lots of commoners with nothing to do but work in service industries and mass-manufacturing.
Hence the Automatic Plow. Hence the Magical Apple Picker. Hence the Arcane-Herd-o-Matic.
Then you'd see lots of people in college, just learning how to use the doodads...
You are assuming that having lots of available people leads to lots of people enrolling into colleges. That's not neccessarily the case, as a look at many Third World nations today shows...
Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
Scientist=shaman=wizard?
Well. I can't says as I agree.
I mean is true that I don't have a very intimate knowledge of many machines in my life, but my great grandparents probably knew how to fix everything they owned, more or less, and they were living in a very technological society.
The only reason I don't know how to fix most of the things I own now is that my society doesn't exactly encourage that knowledge in me and I, sad to say, tend to learn only what my society says are good options for me to learn. Or rather we tend now to specialize in very specific knowledges which wasn't always the case v. technology.
Now I do recognize that a lot of current model cars are way beyond home fixin at this point, but most computer and electronic problems aren't....
Bla bla bla.
So yes I do recognize that there is a sociological validity to the argument that scientists and wizards are similar, but I think the argument is very narrow even in that realm and certainly doesn't apply to well to the specific natures of magic and tech as known through DnD and the non-fictional world.
Other differences: very few people expect a scientist to have developed knowledge outside of his or her area of expertise. Wizards and shamans tend to be generalists within their areas of expertise. Even an illusionist knows a lot more than illusion spells and should have a good few skill points in profession and knowledge stuff. Further even field work for scientists is a lot more specific and controlled than a wizards field work of acompanying a group of fighters on a venture.
Magic is both more and less accessible. Any family on your block could be dragon-blooded and start shooting out magic missles. You and I could develop faith or be chosen and have the capacity to drive men off with the power of our gawd and heal the wounded with no chance of injury and all it takes is obeying the professional laws and sleeping regular. Becoming a scientist is often far more involved, what with needing a good initial education to get the props to go to the good school to get the good education to go to grad school to maybe get the good job.
On the other hand, a scientist can write out his theories and, as long as he or she isn't totally obtuse, pretty much communicate them to anyone who is familiar with the field. A wizard who only knows second level spells ain't gonna get fireball save he or she has gained enough insight through both professional and general experience to have a mind open for the power.
Also, I would argue that for most societies that believed in magic in our own world, magic made you think a lot more than tech does in ours. I mean the perfect artifact is one whose controls you can near totally internalize as it simply does what you envisioning it doing. Magic doesn't like to be forgotten or not thought about. Superstition is always about making you more aware of your surroundings. I mean would you at all notice if you spilled salt unless you thought it really bad that you did so? Whereas I know of no superstition regarding typing keys that would require me to constantly pay attention to one key.
Even in DnD magic always requires that you have to respecify spells everyday or keep careful track of how you use them. A sword swings as well as it always does and you have a set chance of recovering arrows.
Well. I can't says as I agree.
I mean is true that I don't have a very intimate knowledge of many machines in my life, but my great grandparents probably knew how to fix everything they owned, more or less, and they were living in a very technological society.
The only reason I don't know how to fix most of the things I own now is that my society doesn't exactly encourage that knowledge in me and I, sad to say, tend to learn only what my society says are good options for me to learn. Or rather we tend now to specialize in very specific knowledges which wasn't always the case v. technology.
Now I do recognize that a lot of current model cars are way beyond home fixin at this point, but most computer and electronic problems aren't....
Bla bla bla.
So yes I do recognize that there is a sociological validity to the argument that scientists and wizards are similar, but I think the argument is very narrow even in that realm and certainly doesn't apply to well to the specific natures of magic and tech as known through DnD and the non-fictional world.
Other differences: very few people expect a scientist to have developed knowledge outside of his or her area of expertise. Wizards and shamans tend to be generalists within their areas of expertise. Even an illusionist knows a lot more than illusion spells and should have a good few skill points in profession and knowledge stuff. Further even field work for scientists is a lot more specific and controlled than a wizards field work of acompanying a group of fighters on a venture.
Magic is both more and less accessible. Any family on your block could be dragon-blooded and start shooting out magic missles. You and I could develop faith or be chosen and have the capacity to drive men off with the power of our gawd and heal the wounded with no chance of injury and all it takes is obeying the professional laws and sleeping regular. Becoming a scientist is often far more involved, what with needing a good initial education to get the props to go to the good school to get the good education to go to grad school to maybe get the good job.
On the other hand, a scientist can write out his theories and, as long as he or she isn't totally obtuse, pretty much communicate them to anyone who is familiar with the field. A wizard who only knows second level spells ain't gonna get fireball save he or she has gained enough insight through both professional and general experience to have a mind open for the power.
Also, I would argue that for most societies that believed in magic in our own world, magic made you think a lot more than tech does in ours. I mean the perfect artifact is one whose controls you can near totally internalize as it simply does what you envisioning it doing. Magic doesn't like to be forgotten or not thought about. Superstition is always about making you more aware of your surroundings. I mean would you at all notice if you spilled salt unless you thought it really bad that you did so? Whereas I know of no superstition regarding typing keys that would require me to constantly pay attention to one key.
Even in DnD magic always requires that you have to respecify spells everyday or keep careful track of how you use them. A sword swings as well as it always does and you have a set chance of recovering arrows.
Similar Threads
