Does high magic = high tech?

[Jürgen Hubert]

Well, the more it's discussed the more apparent it is that a Nexus Tower really would change things - and probably into an elitist society. We're talking one person in charge of a hundred thousand life forces here, giving them incredible resources. That kind of power has rarely been seen in Earth's history; even in the days of grand empires the imperators had to secure at least some modicum of goodwill from their populace, but a Nexus Tower just sits there no matter what the people think.

However, in practice most cities will be controlled by small groups of people, possibly family clans - if someone masters magic, and thus keeps the Nexus Towers running, he can pay less attention to political and other threats. Some division of labor is essential. And it makes for better potential for adventures, too - each member probably has his own agenda, even if he is allied to the others...

But yes, the resulting society is going to be pretty elitist. Sure, you can probably get in there if you are competent (=high-level) enough, because no smart ruler lets any resources go to waste - but for the unwashed masses, the prospects are pretty dysmial.

The economics are an interesting issue, too. A good point about selling off magic items to pay for your magic-enhanced troops; that would pour maybe fifty minor magical items into an area of 100,000 people per year. So one item per 2000 heads. That wouldn't actually change things much... until you look at accretion over a hundred years, in which case you've got one item per twenty heads. Saturation is not a given, but it does create an environment of magic in known use.

In Urbis, saturation is not a given, because the city populations keep on growing (which is encouraged by the rulers, since they get more energy out of it). Plus, they probably prefer to create items with charges, since they can sell more of them...

And to jerk things back to the topic of the thread, I can't think of any technological device or scifi plot where something like this exists except The Matrix, and even then it's a tenuous connection - it doesn't sound like many people in Urbis are concerned for the happiness of the plebians, unlike the machine intelligences of the twenty-somethingth century. And there's no false reality.

Well, I'm glad that I have hit on something relatively original...

Most rulers try not to make things too oppressive (and they will usually make sure that their subjects have at least enough to eat and some basic sort of shelter), however. Otherwise, the masses will simply pack up their (few) belongings and leave for a city with a friendlier climate.

Essentially, the rulers of the cities have to act like any succesfull pimp or drug dealer: Squeeze as much out of your victims as you can, while still making them coming back and begging for more.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Choice and Human Living

Your point about people living in some pretty awful conditions is taken.

Even in these circumstances, however, choice is an important factor in the development of a city. Even a city like Early Modern London with its horrendous conditions is a choice against living out in the country where there were no possibilities of jobs and people who were similarly disenfranchised didn't exist in high enough concentrations to make the horrible compromise toward existence that is a slum something that the local authorities were willing to put up with.

And even in cases of already horrific conditions, people will still flee a situation that actively threatens them. Refugees are a fact of human existence. Anyone who has the slightest variable of choice is going to want to move out of the effective 'drain to death' range of a nexus tower.

As I think about the effects of this reverse sort of anti-hydraulic dictatorship are simply mind-boggling. Nearest comparison I can think of for a morally invested technology are the affects and significance inherent in a nuclear bomb.

Democracies would go into crisis trying to discover how to regulate control over these things, and if it really is a nexus tower competition between nations the strategic/political problems involved are devious beyond measure. I mean as a democracy do you try to get everyone under the towers so that everyone sacrafices equally or does the thought of that much state control make you so crazy that you move everyone away from the towers except for members of a special branch of the military, The martyr marines, and try to discover ways to change them so they give up the juice more effectively.

I can easily picture this system working for the Aztecs. Every few years they go on another flower war and create a sacrifice population for thier divine nexus towers.

A very potent and very uniquely magical affect on a society.

At least you would know there is one job a machine couldn't put you out of.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Re: Choice and Human Living

And even in cases of already horrific conditions, people will still flee a situation that actively threatens them. Refugees are a fact of human existence. Anyone who has the slightest variable of choice is going to want to move out of the effective 'drain to death' range of a nexus tower.

Which is why the "drain to death" setting of Nexus Towers is used rarely - a "typical" setting for the slum areas is "Moderate Drain", in which long-term inhabitants will experience a Charisma penalty of -2 and feel somewhat apathetic (this has the additional effect of making them easier to control). That said, there is at least one city that uses the "drain to death" setting. An excerpt:

"Ahort (Small Metropolis, 734,130): Also called "The City of Last Rest", this city-state ruled by vampires, liches, and other undead is infamous for its hunger for life energy. Its agents constantly roam the world and purchase living, thinking beings. Usually, this means buying slaves, but these agents are all too willing to accept deals from the desperate who sell themselves to get their family out of debt, or worse. Sometimes these "body hunters" kidnap people themselves, but the rulers prefer that new victims are bought. Either they harbor a perverse joy from buying humans like chattle, or there is a mystically important symbiology involved in these deals that outsiders haven't been able to fathom.
Whatever the way these unfortunate souls arrive in Ahort, they are herded into special districts of the city where they live in spartan barracks and are forced to work hard under they die either from exhaustion, abuse by their guards, or the life energy drain from the nexus towers. Few prisoners last for more than a few months."

In other words, you get the fantasy equivalent of concentration camps...

As I think about the effects of this reverse sort of anti-hydraulic dictatorship are simply mind-boggling.

Query: "Anti-hydraulic"?

Nearest comparison I can think of for a morally invested technology are the affects and significance inherent in a nuclear bomb.

Well, some of the spells that can be cast with Nexus Towers are pretty much equivalent to tac-nukes...

Democracies would go into crisis trying to discover how to regulate control over these things, and if it really is a nexus tower competition between nations the strategic/political problems involved are devious beyond measure.

Which, of course, provides plenty of opportunities for adventures.

The way I see it, the basic political unit in Urbis is the city-state - while larger political entities exit, controlling them can become quite hard. Each city-state also controls a "protectorate" of rural regions that provide it with food and other "strategic resources". As much of these regions are some distance away from the closest Nexus Tower, there are a lot of skirmishes and stand-offs between neighboring cities to determine who ultimately gets to use them.

And again, plenty of opportunities for adventures here...

I mean as a democracy do you try to get everyone under the towers so that everyone sacrafices equally or does the thought of that much state control make you so crazy that you move everyone away from the towers except for members of a special branch of the military, The martyr marines, and try to discover ways to change them so they give up the juice more effectively.

Most good-aligned states that care about their cities usually set the drain to "slight" everywhere - this drain is barely noticeable, and most people can live with it. That being said, there is a vaguely democratic state in Urbis - the Siebenbund - that doesn't have any Nexus Towers at all.

They do well enough for much the same reasons why Switzerland does well, and I've introduced more than one parallel. Plus, the image of Swiss halflings is just too cool to resist...

I can easily picture this system working for the Aztecs. Every few years they go on another flower war and create a sacrifice population for thier divine nexus towers.

A very potent and very uniquely magical affect on a society.

Cool idea. Mind if I steal it for Urbis?

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Re: Choice and Human Living

I can easily picture this system working for the Aztecs. Every few years they go on another flower war and create a sacrifice population for thier divine nexus towers.

I've gone ahead and put something like this into Urbis (hope you don't mind):

"Valley of Thorns: The Snake Kindoms are built on slave labor. The life of a slave is harsh, and they tend to be worked to near-death by their yuan-ti masters - and once they cannot work any longer, their life energies are drained by nexus towers. This creates a constant demand for new slaves, and many yuan-ti solved this by raiding their neighbors - even other yuan-ti communities. This eventually got so out of hand that the priesthood of Sarush intervened, and instituted the "Thorn Wars", annual mock battles that take place in the Valley of Thorns. All cities of the Snake Kingdoms participate, as well as many smaller groups and individuals. The goal is to capture as many yuan-ti of opposing forces as possible. Any living yuan-ti prisoners are exchanged for a ransom after the Thorn Wars are over - the groups whose members were captured are obligated to exchange humanoid slaves for them - 10 for a pureblood, 20 for a halfblood, and 50 for a yuan-ti abomination. It is perfectly acceptable for any participants to use human slaves or mercenaries as soldiers in the Thorn Wars - but whoever manages to capture those gets to keep them."

 

[mmadsen]

"Standard D&D" magic, for example, depends on the powers of highly skilled individuals. Their feats are impressive, but not easily reproduceable by laymen, and again, magic items can only be created by them.

It's more akin to poetry or art than engineering. You can pass on learning to your students, but -- despite all the formulae in the spell book -- it's not as formulaic as science and technology. Only those with personal talent and hard-earned skill can cast a fireball or make a magic wand, while normal men can build a gun or car from the design put out by a few engineers.

 

[Atticus_of_Amber]

It's more akin to poetry or art than engineering. You can pass on learning to your students, but -- despite all the formulae in the spell book -- it's not as formulaic as science and technology. Only those with personal talent and hard-earned skill can cast a fireball or make a magic wand, while normal men can build a gun or car from the design put out by a few engineers.

mmadsen, I agree totally!

From my reading of the history of technology (admittedly within the context of economic history rather than the history of science), early inventions were extremely expensive and available only to the very wealthy and to governments and other major institutions (e.g. the steam travel, the telegraph, the telephone, the automobile, air travel, computers, early mobile phones, etc). As their developers reaped the profits of these inventions they ploughed that money into ways to simplify and streamline the product, and simplify the manufacturing process, so as to allow mass production (e.g. Henry Ford and the automobile) . As mass production increased, prices fell and the product became increasingly available to all members of society, with attendant major social changes.

Now imagine that the process for developing these inventions, say the aeroplane, could not be reduced to a simple set of instructions executable by any competent mechanic. Imagine that aeroplanes could only be created by people with similar intelligence and training and self-discipline to that of the Wright brothers (though perhaps lacking their inventive imaginations and inclinations). Mass production would be impossible. Only those who could afford to keep people of the calibre of the Wright brothers on their payrolls could hope to have a regular supply of aeroplanes. Planes would be incredibly expensive and incredibly expensive to maintain. Flying would remain the preserve of the wealthy elite. Aeronautical engineers would be incredibly rare, incredibly prestigious and incredible sought after (compare with the way Leonardo de Vinci was so sought after for his siege engineering skills by the Italian city-states and mercenary companies during the early Renaissance).

This is how I imagine the social role of magic in the DnD world. The very wealthy (and high level clerics and wizards and their retainers) would use it as technology. The lowly would live much as the lowly did in the Middle Ages. Some items might be *reasonably* common (but very expensive) and thus have a social effect – ever-flaming torches, minor healing potions, use of green slime for sewerage waste removal, use of plant growth spells to help crops (though this last would only be in those areas blessed with the presence of a high enough level cleric, and the added population bearing capacity would precariously rely on that cleric's continued presence).

Basically, rather than flattening social and economic differences as mass produced real world technology does, magic technology would *exacerbate* social and economic differences. The rich and powerful could fly on griffin back or teleport from city to city, could have their houses lit by ever-flaming torches, watered by decanters of endless water, could have their wounds and illness instantly healed and even be brought back from the dead. The poor would live a pretty desperate existence. No wonder so many would take up the adventuring life…

 

[mmadsen]

Re: In Defense of Golems

In my previous campaign, there was actually a widely held belief that, in the long run, golems were in fact cheaper than people. I mean, c'mon, a human menail worker has to be fed, housed, etc., and wears out after swiftly. A <I>golem</i>, on the other hand, doesn't eat, doesn't sleep, doesn't join a guild, don't do anything but work, work, work. For <i>aeons</i>, if properly cared for.

But that golem's output is spread over eons as well. Properly discounted for time, it might not be worth much at all to short-lived quasi-medieval humans. In fact, if their future's uncertain enough that they discount future returns at 50% annually, an immortal slave is worth just two man-years of work today. If their future's fairly certain, and they only discount future returns at 10% annually, an immortal slave is still only worth ten man-years of work today.

Multiply those numbers by how many men's work one golem can perform, and you get the present value of a golem. For instance, a golem capable of performing 30 men's labor forever is worth 20 to 300 man-years' labor, assuming anywhere from 50% down to 10% interest -- not that mad sorcerer kings are getting bank loans.

But, regardless, in terms of economics, if one presumes as I did that golems never "wear out," then creating as many as possible makes sense for people who think in terms of centuries instead of days and years.

Even for someone with a very long-term view, hiring workers or buying slaves seems like a decent deal against the 80,000 gp materials cost plus two months' Wizard's labor, all paid up front, that it takes to build a stone golem. Even 300 man-years of labor only costs ~100,000 sp, or ~10,000 gp in D&D's decimal currency system.

 

[Atticus_of_Amber]

Re: Re: In Defense of Golems

But that golem's output is spread over eons as well. Properly discounted for time, it might not be worth much at all to short-lived quasi-medieval humans. In fact, if their future's uncertain enough that they discount future returns at 50% annually, an immortal slave is worth just two man-years of work today. If their future's fairly certain, and they only discount future returns at 10% annually, an immortal slave is still only worth ten man-years of work today.

Multiply those numbers by how many men's work one golem can perform, and you get the present value of a golem. For instance, a golem capable of performing 30 men's labor forever is worth 20 to 300 man-years' labor, assuming anywhere from 50% down to 10% interest -- not that mad sorcerer kings are getting bank loans.

Even for someone with a very long-term view, hiring workers or buying slaves seems like a decent deal against the 80,000 gp materials cost plus two months' Wizard's labor, all paid up front, that it takes to build a stone golem. Even 300 man-years of labor only costs ~100,000 sp, or ~10,000 gp in D&D's decimal currency system.

Again I totally agree.

However two types might have sufficiently long time horizons to make widespread use of “immortal” but expensive “technologies” – elves and institutions. Elves live so long that it’s worth it (and this dovetails nicely with the idea of elves as a high magic race) and institutions because they are effectively immortal – though for the later to work the institutions would have to have a strong Lawful sense of the interests of the group being more important than the interests of the individual members.

So, for widespread users of technology we have the very rich, the magically talented, elves and rich long standing institutions with access to magical talent…

Also, while a golem slave is very valuable – they are also very expensive to replace if destroyed. People breed on the (relative) cheap.

Cheap mass production techniques would, of course, change all this...

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Re: Re: In Defense of Golems

However two types might have sufficiently long time horizons to make widespread use of “immortal” but expensive “technologies” – elves and institutions.

That's just what I was going to get to, Atticus_of_Amber. Anyone more-or-less immortal and living a peaceful existance -- doesn't that scream "elves"? -- can invest a lot now for a steady stream of returns over the next few decades or centuries.

I don't see too many quasi-corporate institutions in a fantasy world. Am I missing an obvious example or two? An order of Templars might work...

 

[Atticus_of_Amber]

Re: Re: Re: Re: In Defense of Golems

That's just what I was going to get to, Atticus_of_Amber. Anyone more-or-less immortal and living a peaceful existance -- doesn't that scream "elves"? -- can invest a lot now for a steady stream of returns over the next few decades or centuries.

I don't see too many quasi-corporate institutions in a fantasy world. Am I missing an obvious example or two? An order of Templars might work...

Quasi-corporate institutions I was thinking of:

- The Wayfarers Guild from T&B
- Lawful church hierarchies
- The Arcane Order from T&B
- Lawful governments (limited to household guards, servants, etc – the individuals in charge and probably not self sacrificing enough for more than that)

But I agree, not many…

So, we’ve demonstrated that elves are likely to have a high-magic culture. Whoda thunk it?