Does immune to Paralysis mean immune to Hold?

[Corwin]

But the description of hold effects is different from the description of paralysis effects, iirc. Also, hold effects are mind-affecting, while paralysis (typically, anyhow- there might be exceptions) aren't. The two effects are qualitatively different.

I think you may have misunderstood me somewhat. I actually agree that Hold and Paralysis are two different things. No, dragons should not be immune to Hold spells, IMO.

But even if there were more "cerebral" Paralysis effects, I think the dragon would still be immune, because it is still a Paralysis effect. Whereas, to me anyway, a poison that paralyzes is doing so as a Poison effect, where being paralyzed is the consequence for failing the Fort save vs. said poison. Unlike a Paralysis effect, where you are being hit with it as a Paralysis effect and failing your save makes you paralyzed. The dragon still has blood in its veins that can carry the poison and [insert how certain poisons affect the body here].

Plus, any attack that has a Paralysis effect would be magical in nature (Sp,or Su). Whereas, poisons that can paralyze are Extraordinary (non-magical).

Does any of that make any sense at all?

I'd also say that something immune to poison would be immune to any poison, regardless of its effect- whether it inflicts paralysis, blindness, strength damage, con damage or whatever.

I agree here too. Immunity to poison would apply to all types of poison. Even using your criteria of something having to be in it's own catagory. I mean, it is poison, after all. So there is still consistancy here.

Also not trying to be argumentative- just trying to explain my reasoning! And I could be wrong- idhmbifom.

I also dhmbifom. So we are even. I'm just basing my opinion on the fact that dragons are not immune to poison. So poisons should affect them. [shrug] But that's just me, I guess.

 

[the Jester]

I think you may have misunderstood me somewhat. I actually agree that Hold and Paralysis are two different things. No, dragons should not be immune to Hold spells, IMO.

But even if there were more "cerebral" Paralysis effects, I think the dragon would still be immune, because it is still a Paralysis effect. Whereas, to me anyway, a poison that paralyzes is doing so as a Poison effect, where being paralyzed is the consequence for failing the Fort save vs. said poison. Unlike a Paralysis effect, where you are being hit with it as a Paralysis effect and failing your save makes you paralyzed. The dragon still has blood in its veins that can carry the poison and [insert how certain poisons affect the body here].

Plus, any attack that has a Paralysis effect would be magical in nature (Sp,or Su). Whereas, poisons that can paralyze are Extraordinary (non-magical).

Ah, gotcha... However! I have to disagree that all paralysis attacks are magical. In fact, in nature, most paralyzing effects are the result of toxins. I'd extend the immunity to them, though I can definitely see where you're coming from.

I also dhmbifom. So we are even. I'm just basing my opinion on the fact that dragons are not immune to poison. So poisons should affect them. [shrug] But that's just me, I guess.

Well, going back to the elf and sleep poison example, how do you feel about that one? Elves are immune to sleep effects, not poison; but their immunity to sleep would immunize them against (f'rex) Drow sleep venom in my book; would you agree, or would you disagree on the basis of it being a poison?

This is a fun discussion!

 

[incognito]

I can't imagine a poison that would do actual fire damage so I think your point is without real merit, IMO.

Awww. Corwin, don't keep me down like that!

You cannot envision a poison that causes chemicals in your body to undergo an exothermic reaction causing heat/fire damage?

In a similar vein, an endothermic reacion might cause cold damage.

I get the visuals, with the tactile, from hot and cold packs they sell in drug stores. These plastic packages are sold at room temperture, but after shaking, or some other simple operation, they heat up or cool down significantly, as a result of the chemicals reacting.

And that's without going into magic poisons!

onto Hold vs Paralysis - and I don't have a solid opinion, I'm just sounding out my logic.

Are there example of items, spell or effects which cause Paralysis that do not replicate Hold? The SRD list them together:

PARALYSIS & HOLD

Some monsters and spells have the supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze or hold their victims, immobilizing them through magical means.

A paralyzed or held character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs. He may take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell with no components.

Paralysis works on the body, and a character can usually resist it with a Fortitude saving throw. Hold is a mind-affecting enchantment, and a character usually resists it with a Will saving throw.

A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it is held or paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.

By this argument I could be tempted to say any Paralysis effect is a Fort save, where as Hold is will save.

...except for that elf problem. You see, the spell sleep gives a Will save, and the poison that causes sleep is a Fort save..

 

[Corwin]

Awww. Corwin, don't keep me down like that!

Oh, shucks. But I like to oppress people.

You cannot envision a poison that causes chemicals in your body to undergo an exothermic reaction causing heat/fire damage?

In a similar vein, an endothermic reacion might cause cold damage.

I get the visuals, with the tactile, from hot and cold packs they sell in drug stores. These plastic packages are sold at room temperture, but after shaking, or some other simple operation, they heat up or cool down significantly, as a result of the chemicals reacting.

I wouldn’t call the energy created by a hot compress as [Fire]. Sure it’s warm, but [Fire]? I doubt it. I’m sure that, if you swallowed the chemicals from a hot compress, you’d die from ingesting the chemicals themselves, not the heat generated by them.

I still contend that elemental energy effects would not logically come from a poison. But like I said before, that may just be me.

...except for that elf problem. You see, the spell sleep gives a Will save, and the poison that causes sleep is a Fort save.

Yeah. I going to have to disagree with the Sage on this one.

From the SRD on Elven special abilities:

“Immunity to magic sleep spells and effects.”

I would not consider narcoleptic poisons as magical. Not even close. They are [Extraordinary], in fact. I would think they should affect elves normally.


OK, I’ve got another one for ya

Ability Damage.

Per the SRD:

“A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious.”

Are dragons able to continue to move when reduced to 0 Dexterity? Are elves able to function at 0 Int, Wis or Cha?

 

[Darklone]

Drow poison causes unconsciousness, not sleep. Therefore elves are not immune.

As for hold monster against dragons: Should work since the dragon could move his body if he wanted to... Hold is an enchantment

The spell makes you willing not to move

 

[Corwin]

Ah, gotcha... However! I have to disagree that all paralysis attacks are magical. In fact, in nature, most paralyzing effects are the result of toxins. I'd extend the immunity to them, though I can definitely see where you're coming from.

But we aren't talking about nature, are we? When something in D&D is immune to [Paralysis], to me, that means things like a Ghoul's Touch. Not a debilitating poison. I do draw the line between natural and magical. That's where we seem to disagree here.

Well, going back to the elf and sleep poison example, how do you feel about that one? Elves are immune to sleep effects, not poison; but their immunity to sleep would immunize them against (f'rex) Drow sleep venom in my book; would you agree, or would you disagree on the basis of it being a poison?

Like I told incognito, I think elves should be susceptible to sleep poisons. Drow sleep poison included. It isn't a magical effect. It's Poison. Why would the Drow use something that their biggest enemy (surface elves) is immune to? Seems counterintuitive to me.

 

[Corwin]

Drow poison causes unconsciousness, not sleep. Therefore elves are not immune.

As for hold monster against dragons: Should work since the dragon could move his body if he wanted to... Hold is an enchantment

The spell makes you willing not to move

Exactly. On each count.

 

[incognito]

Elves are immune to sleep poison becsaue (drumroll)

Elves.don't.sleep.

I argue it's the effect, not the source.

Do undead care where ability damage comes from (magical, natural, etc)? Nope, they are immune to it.

 

[Corwin]

Elves are immune to sleep poison becsaue (drumroll)

Elves.don't.sleep.

I argue it's the effect, not the source.

But Darklone was quick to correct us all when he pointed out (drumroll)

Unconsciousness.isn't.sleep.

Are you saying elves are immune to Unconsciousness? Because I recently asked you if you think they should continue to function if brought to 0 Int, Wis or Cha. You didn't answer that one. Scroll up and take another look, if you don't mind.

Do undead care where ability damage comes from (magical, natural, etc)? Nope, they are immune to it.

But that's because, as we have been discussing all along, Ability Damage has an entire category in the Effects chapter. Right along with Paralysis, Poison, Hold, etc.

I've never claimed that a catagory should be separated into magical and natural. Just that the separate categories should be just that, separate. So it doesn't matter where the Ability Damage comes from, they are immune to that effect.

Using that rule, we find that, since elves are not immune to Ability Damage, they will indeed fall unconscious if brought to 0 Int, Wis or Cha. And Dragons will as well. And both should be susceptible to Poisons since they are not immune to them. Even ones that render them unconscious or paralyzed. Why make such a distinction in this one catagory but not others?

Anyway, I think I've made my point about as clear as I can. I'll rest my case on its merits.

 

[incognito]

No need to be short with me Corwin, my reply is not an attack, it's a discussion, right? If I have been inflamatory, please let me know what I can do to reply more appropriately

so Drow sleep poison causes unconciousness - I have no problem with it working- are you saying that's the only sleep inducing effect that's not a spell?

Here's more:
Pixie Arrows,
Bronze Dragon Breath

But I'm actually reading ability loss, and I can across this tidbit

• WIS 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.

are elves immune to this?