Does immune to Paralysis mean immune to Hold?

[the Jester]

This discussion continues to be really fun!

I think one thing that's being overlooked here is the overlap factor. Some poisons cause ability damage- heck, most poisons do- but ability damage still gets a section and poison gets a section. I posit that the effect, not the source, is what matters.

About elves reduced to wis 0 or dragons reduced to dex 0: the problem here is with poor wording. A dragon at dex 0 isn't paralyzed, but iirc a creature with dex 0 can't move. A creature with a wis 0 isn't conscious because it doesn't count as a creature anymore (the same is true for a cha 0). (This is discussed, iirc, in the PH in the chapter on ability scores.)

As to the fine line between sleep and unconsciousness- all right, I can go with that (Drow poison causes unconsciousness).

A ghoul's touch causes paralysis; so does a Portugese man-o-war's. Granted that it's a natural attack (ex rather than su), but I still call paralysis paralysis. Dragons are immune to it regardless of source.

Interesting that the SRD lumps hold and paralysis together, though; I didn't know that.

About pixie arrows: here we have a sleep effect caused by a poison delivery mechanism. I'd say elves are immune- but again, I don't have my books, perhaps the MM says it causes "unconsciousness" instead of "sleep" and perhaps it even specifies whether elves are immune. Have to check once I go get them all back...

 

[Corwin]

No need to be short with me Corwin, my reply is not an attack, it's a discussion, right? If I have been inflamatory, please let me know what I can do to reply more appropriately

Ummm? Huh? You've lost me. How am I being short.

And no, I wasn't taking your posts as attacks or inflamatory. Did I give that impression? I don't see how. [shrug] Anyway...

so Drow sleep poison causes unconciousness - I have no problem with it working- are you saying that's the only sleep inducing effect that's not a spell?

Here's more:
Pixie Arrows,
Bronze Dragon Breath

Again, though, I'm not trying to break down everything into magical or not. I never tried. I never even recommended it. I don't consider that a qualification for catagorizing it into an "effect type" (like Hold, Paralyzation, Poison, Ability Damage, etc.). Having said that, elves, by the definition of their resistance, would be immune to Pixie arrows and the breathweapon of a Brass Dragon (I assume you meant Brass, BTW). The reason being that they are both magical sleep effects. Things elves are specifically immune to.

But I'm actually reading ability loss, and I can across this tidbit

• WIS 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.

are elves immune to this?

I was the one trying to point out how rediculous it would be to extend their immunities to include the loss of a mental stat. How come I'm now being asked to defend the notion? No, I do not believe elves should be immune to having a 0 Int, Wis or Cha. Though undead are.

 

[the Jester]

No, I do not believe elves should be immune to having a 0 Int, Wis or Cha. Though undead are.

Only by virtue of being immune to ability damage, though! What if there were a spell similar to Ray of Enfeeblement that gave an enhancement penalty to a mental stat? [/devil's advocate]

 

[incognito]

I am tending twds the Jester's POV.

Let's say for example, that there was a poison that caused nonmagical sleep; triggering a chemical in the body that puts a living thing to sleep.

Although elves are not immune to poison, since they do not sleep, I cannot see why the poison would affect them.

I do not know where I stand on the Drow poison issue. I am inclined to say it's a bit cheaty to use the word unconscious, since that has a literal meaning of placing the character from -1 to -10 hp.

On Dragon's resistance to paralysis, I am inclined to say it does NOT protect agianst hold - becsause the SRD is explicit in stating:

Paralysis works on the body, and a character can usually resist it with a Fortitude saving throw. Hold is a mind-affecting enchantment, and a character usually resists it with a Will saving throw.

So if it works on the body from whatever source, Dragons are immune. If it works on the mind, from whatever source, Dragons aren't immune.