D&D 5E (2014) Does Magic Initiate need changing?

[Laurefindel]

the "trick" is to pick spells that are relevant no mater your level. Misty step is useful at level 3, and still good at level 12. Damage spells would be a mistake (save cantrips, for the reasons you say)

Perhaps some automatic up-scaling could be built in. My son played a Skyrim dragonborn-inspired barbarian with Thunderwave as its first level spell. We upscaled it at level 5th and 11th (and presumably 17th if we made it there) to keep it somewhat relevant. So basically, it's a1st level slot at level 1-4, a second level slot at level 5-10, a third level slot at level 11-16, and a fourth level slot at level 17-20.

I had a character with Hex as a MI spell that could really have used something like that too. It was far from being OP...

 

[Ancalagon]

Yes, they both grant a 1st level spell, but so does Magic Initiate--so I consider that a wash. They only difference is (as I said) the new feats allow you to cast the spells again if you have spell slots for them.

magic initiate is far more flexible in the choice of level 1 spell, so I think it is "better" than the level 1 spell of fey touch or shadow initiate (particularly that one, illusion and necro is not the best 2 schools for a first level spell). But if we do accept your position that they are roughly equivalent, the choice becomes:

a specific 2nd level spell + an ASI (+1) vs 2 cantrips of your choice (but in the same spell list).

I think you could make the argument that if Fey touch didn't give you an ASI, Magic initiate is clearly better. But with an ASI thrown in...

 

[Laurefindel]

I have read that technically speaking, you can't re-cast the magic initiate spell with other slots from your class. Perhaps changing that would help make it more "competitive"?

Wasn't this in one of the erratas?

 

[Undrave]

In my experience magic initiate was taken a lot for variant humans. Shield + 2 cantrips ofthen helped known casters get more versality.

REALLY appreciated by Clerics and Bards who don't get ANY offensive options for Cantrip in PHB1. At some point you get bored of Vicious Monkey and Sacred Flame on ALL the characters of that class...

I had a Human Cleric of the Nature Domain who picked up Produce Flame, Druidcraft and Goodberry to add utility, ranged options and a thematic spell. He was a Cleric of the Dagda from an order who fed the poor so producing magical food was totally in line.

EDIT: No wait... I think he was a Oath of the Ancient Paladin?

 

[Undrave]

Wasn't this in one of the erratas?

I think it only works if you choose to Magic Initiate in your own class (which you totally can do, BTW!)

 

[Undrave]

I've taken MI (Druid) for multiple builds, building off of cantrips

• for a shillelagh-using Paladin
• for a Magic-Stone wielding Rogue
• to give guidance to a fighter
• to give Sacred flame to a cleric, so they can have an attack cantrip with a to-hit roll.

I think you mean Produce Flame? The clerics already have Sacred Flame. It's their only damaging Cantrip in the PHB (Cleric and Bards got shafted hard in the PHB. They should have gotten rid of True Strike and have Toll the Dead instead

 

[Kobold Stew]

I think you mean Produce Flame? The clerics already have Sacred Flame. It's their only damaging Cantrip in the PHB (Cleric and Bards got shafted hard in the PHB. They should have gotten rid of True Strike and have Toll the Dead instead

Yes I do!

 

[DND_Reborn]

magic initiate is far more flexible in the choice of level 1 spell, so I think it is "better" than the level 1 spell of fey touch or shadow initiate (particularly that one, illusion and necro is not the best 2 schools for a first level spell). But if we do accept your position that they are roughly equivalent, the choice becomes:

a specific 2nd level spell + an ASI (+1) vs 2 cantrips of your choice (but in the same spell list).

I think you could make the argument that if Fey touch didn't give you an ASI, Magic initiate is clearly better. But with an ASI thrown in...

True, I had forgotten that the new feats restricted which schools you could learn your 1st-level spell from.

IMO, the greater flexibility for MI then makes it close to equal to FT/ST even with the +1 ASI.

In summary,

2 cantrips (at will)
a 1st level spell from any school (per long rest)

VS.

a specific 2nd-level spell (per long rest)
a 1st level spell from limited schools (per long rest)
a +1 ASI (to a likely spellcasting ability)

While I agree FT/ST are definitely "stronger" with the ASI (thanks Tasha, for the power creep... ), I don't think they are so much stronger that I would grant MI an ASI as well. Given the greater versatility of MI, I think it is still a very viable option for players who want a bit of magic without being restricted by the schools they get to pick their spells from. Also, depending on the build, cantrips can be very useful both in combat and outside of it, so having two cantrips at will is a significant plus IME.

Finally, although FT/ST are limited in schools, there are some pretty darn good spells in those schools IMO:

FT: Bless, Hex, Hunter's Mark, Sleep; and Misty Step is very good
ST: Disguise Self, False Life, Inflict Wounds; and of course Invisibility rocks!

The only suggestion I would have for MI would be to grant detect magic in addition to the 1st level spell. Every class except Warlock has access to it anyway, so it would be a nice "perk" to make MI more on par with the newer feats, but not crazy good.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

The feat should be rewritten to be in line with how such feats are handled these days, with the 1st level spell gained becoming effectively a known and memorized spell that can be cast with your normal spell slots. The current status, where (by RAW) it only does that if you are a memorized caster taking it in your own class, is way too convoluted and counterintuitive, and the misbegotten child of poor phrasing.

But beyond the actual way the level one spell works being needlessly complicated by RAW it also makes the feat a trap choice for anyone who isn't well versed in level one 5e spells and who doesn't read an optimizing guide to learn which handful of spells might make sense if you can only ever cast them once a day (and to eventually just decide to take Find Familiar or Hex). If one could use their other spell slots for more castings then for casters any good level 1 spell would be a reasonable choice rather than just the handful that get a lot of use out of one casting, which really simplifies taking the feat a lot.

Beyond that I don't think the feat needs to be a half feat or anything like that. The breadth of choices it makes available makes it better than its competitors.

 

[Ancalagon]

True, I had forgotten that the new feats restricted which schools you could learn your 1st-level spell from.

IMO, the greater flexibility for MI then makes it close to equal to FT/ST even with the +1 ASI.

In summary,

2 cantrips (at will)
a 1st level spell from any school (per long rest)

VS.

a specific 2nd-level spell (per long rest)
a 1st level spell from limited schools (per long rest)
a +1 ASI (to a likely spellcasting ability)

While I agree FT/ST are definitely "stronger" with the ASI (thanks Tasha, for the power creep... ), I don't think they are so much stronger that I would grant MI an ASI as well. Given the greater versatility of MI, I think it is still a very viable option for players who want a bit of magic without being restricted by the schools they get to pick their spells from. Also, depending on the build, cantrips can be very useful both in combat and outside of it, so having two cantrips at will is a significant plus IME.

Finally, although FT/ST are limited in schools, there are some pretty darn good spells in those schools IMO:

FT: Bless, Hex, Hunter's Mark, Sleep; and Misty Step is very good
ST: Disguise Self, False Life, Inflict Wounds; and of course Invisibility rocks!

The only suggestion I would have for MI would be to grant detect magic in addition to the 1st level spell. Every class except Warlock has access to it anyway, so it would be a nice "perk" to make MI more on par with the newer feats, but not crazy good.

A lot to discuss here!

First, I totally agree with you that making MI a "half feat" with a +1 stat bonus is too good. A little "perk" might be nice, and the suggestion you propose is quite reasonable. I also agree that MI is still a very decent feat.

So one thing you'll note between FT and ST is scaling. Bless, hex, misty step, hunter's mark, all stay pretty useful no mater your level. False life and inflict wounds sort of become less significant as you go up in levels. I feel FT is clearly better than ST, but it's a difference in power level I'm ok with.