Zaruthustran said:
As Mistwell illustrated, at first you simply restated your opinion without addressing my argument. Restating an opinion, followed by "How many ways do you want me to say it?" is essentially resorting to "Because I said so."
No, it's not. I was illustrating the various ways in which the spikes were weapons, not armor. This arguement is ridiculous.
Okay, I could see that working for mundane armor. How about magical armor? What, Joe armorsmith simply drills through that +5 Adamantite Armor of Fortification?
Depends on what your DM rules: Do you need special tools to work adamantite?
If the answer is yes, then "Joe armorsmith" won't be able to do anything with your adamantite armor. You would need to go the guy with the tools to work it. And "Joe armorsmith" wouldn't be able to repair your adamantite armor either.
If the answer is no, then "Joe armorsmith" would be able to work it like any other set of armor, except that the DC on the craft check would be higher.
The after-market argument is a good one, especially for mundane armor. You can order armor spikes with the armor, or have them added later by replacing or heavily modifying existing parts. But all that modification would compromise a suit of masterwork or magic armor.
Really, where does it state this? I believe you could add the spikes without compromising the enchantment of the armor.
The +50 price for armor spikes is an option intended to be added to the cost of armor when it's purchased/manufactured.
Show me exactly where it states this please. Because all I see is "You can have spikes added to your armor." To me, that sounds like you just need a set of armor and you can have spikes added to it (presumably by whoever you are buying the spikes from).
Otherwise, the price would be simply "50", and there'd be a note specifying that an armorsmith is needed to add the spikes to the armor.
Once the spikes are added to the armor, they are part of the armor, and the entire set is worth +50 gp, until you have them forcibly removed.
That is why it is +50 gp. The value of the armor increases once they are added.
Compare the +50 price of armor spikes to the +2000 price for Mithral armor. The price of a mithral chain shirt is 2100, or [price of armor] +2000. Same goes for armor spikes. Both are extra qualities of armor determined when the armor is made.
No, because spikes aren't armor. They would be priced under the "other items" section on mithral.
Why on earth would you want Mithral spikes anyway? They would cost more than the armor itself (10 lbs of spikes x 500 gp per pound = +5,000 gp, or +2,500 gp if you count them as half weight).
The spikes could be made out of normal steel.
So, say I find a suit of +5 adamantite plate with armor spikes. Using your model, if I remove the spikes and attach them to my hireling's scale mail, what happens? Are the spikes Masterwork? Are they +5? Are they even adamantite?
It would depend entirely on how the spikes were contructed.
Most likely they would be normal steel spikes, but they could be adamantite spikes they had wanted to shell out the +3000 gp for them.
Spikes are enchanted seperately from the armor, so they wouldn't have any of the armors enchantments on them.
Your model doesn't make sense.
You have done nothing to show that.
I happen to think it makes complete sense. Spikes are just weapons permanently fastened to your armor. They are constructed and priced seperately, but they increase the value of the armor once installed. (Just like a really spiffy set of white-walls on your car.)
The spikes are a part of the armor itself. Look at the image of the Demon Armor in the DMG--those spikes aren't detachable.
Is that even spiked armor? The item description certainly doesn't mention it. It looks like the "spikes" are just an artistic embellishment.
Please use a real example.
I can see your point of view here, but I disagree.
That's certainly your prerogative.
So under the model outlined above, how much would it cost to enchant a spiked shield of bashing +1? Meaning, would you have to have both a masterwork shield and masterwork shield spikes?
Shield spikes are handled completely differently than armor spikes.
Shield spikes don't need to be masterwork, because the shield spikes are not enchanted seperately from the shield. They just change the shield from a blunt weapon into a piercing weapon that does 1d6 damage. (PHB, page 106,
Shield Spikes: " These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon that deals 1d6 points of damage (X2 crit) no matter whether the shield is small or large. Buckler or tower shields cannot have shield spikes.")
The shield itself would have to be masterwork, but can be enhanted with both offensive and defensive enhancements.
(See the DMG, page 179,
ARMOR,
Shield, "Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a bash. The bashing shield enchantment, however, does grant a +1 bonus to attacks and damage (see the item description). You could, in fact, build a shield that also acted as a magic weapon, but the magic offensive bonus cost would need to be added into the defensive bonus cost of the shield.")
Of course not. You'd just need a masterwork spiked shield. Such an item would be a Masterwork Shield (reduces penalties by 1).
You would only need a masterwork shield. You could add shield spikes to it before or after enchanting the shield, it doesn't make a difference. (Although if the shield has the
bashing enchantment, the armor spikes are redundant.)
Same thing with armor spikes.
No, because armor spikes are handled completely differently under the rules.
Armor spikes add a capability to your armor that did not exist before, and are treated as a weapon seperate from your armor when it comes to enchanting them. Thus, they would need to be created as masterwork weapons (seperate from the masterwork armor) before they can be enchanted as weapons. This is because they are enchanted seperately from the armor, and is regardless of wether you think they can be added later or not.
You could have completely mundane armor with magical armor spikes.
Shield spikes simply modify the bashing aspect of the shield, they are not a seperate weapon, are not enchanted seperately, and do not need to be masterwork .
The magnitude of the cost is irrelevant. It's a rules question.
OK. I've started quoting specific rules for you then.
The huge deal is that you're rarely wrong. I find it interesting to argue this topic with you, because in this instance I do think you're wrong.
-z
Yeah, everyone loves to make a big deal out of it when they think they can prove me wrong on something. What do you want if you succeed? A cookie?
I have never claimed to be infallible, and I find it irritating that people act like I'm being incredibly rude when my opinion differs from theirs in areas were the rules are unclear enough to allow differing opinions. Then I get the third degree like I did today, and everyone else gets to have just an opinion, but everything I say has to be backed up with specific quotes from the rules, or I'm being arbitrary. Whatever.