Does Masterwork Spiked Armor = +1 to Armor Spike attacks?

[Mistwell]

Caliban, you have gotten to the point of being rude. Telling me my reading comprehension is lacking was unnecessary. In fact, you had not spoken at all to the question of the "+50" instead of "50" issue until after that crack about my reading comprehension. Your response was:

The reason they are in the armor section and not the weapon section is that they are useless without the armor. You can use a gauntlet by itself, but armor spikes can't be. They have to be attached to the armor to be used.

Which does NOT answer the question directly. I never asked about why they were placed where they were placed in the book. I asked why it said +50. Just because you attach spikes to armor does not mean it therefore follows that it needs a "+" sign in front of it. That's conjecture at best, not a real answer.

Only later did you finally make a real attempt at answering the question:

You can certainly buy armor spikes by themselves, but they won't do you any good until they are attached to the armor. That's why it's +50 gp, because you need an armorsmith to attach them, you can't just screw them on yourself.

Apparently even you thought your response could use a bit more, and felt the need to finally make that response (with the whole armorsmith bit).

Are you just having a bad day, or did you just randomly decide to lob an attack my direction for the fun of it? Again, I agree with you on this whole issue, I just felt like a colorable claim was made that needed a response, and since you were championing that side, I felt you should make that response. Had I know you would get all snotty with me, I wouldn't have bothered.

 

[Caliban]

Caliban, you have gotten to the point of being rude. Telling me my reading comprehension is lacking was uncessary.

The information was there. You chose not to look read it closely enough.

Apparently even you thought your response could use a bit more, and felt the need to finally make that response (with the whole armorsmith bit).

I thought my response was fine, but there were specific questions asked about it.

If you ask politely, I have no problem expanding on an answer. I don't feel that you were asking politely.

Are you just having a bad day, or did you just randomly decide to lob an attack my direction for the fun of it? Again, I agree with you on this whole issue, I just felt like a colorable claim was made that needed a response, and since you were championing that side, I felt you should make that response. Had I know you would get all snotty with me, I wouldn't have bothered.

And I felt like you were trying to instigate an arguement just for the sake of instigating an arguement.

Next time ask me the question directly instead telling me that I didn't answer someone elses question well enough to suit you. Your not my teacher, and your not grading my responses.

If he didn't like my response, he can ask me himself (which he did).

If you tell me to go answer something in more detail, without asking me a specific question, I'm not going to give you a real answer. I'm not a mind reader. If you want a real answer, ask me a real question. If I don't think you are being deliberately rude, I'll probably answer it.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Nope. You can easily drill small holes through the metal and attach the spikes that way. You just need to add another piece on the other side of the armor to brace it. Obviously you would need an armorsmith for this, and that is why they aren't priced seperately: they have to be added by the armorsmith, you can't just buy them and pop them on.

Okay, I could see that working for mundane armor. How about magical armor? What, Joe armorsmith simply drills through that +5 Adamantite Armor of Fortification?

I think it's more in the sense of adding an "after-market" modification to a car. Unless you have ranks of "Craft: car mechanic" yourself, you would need have a mechanic add it to your vehicle for you. You could even order the after-market modifications when you buy the vehicle, in which case there would be an additional charge for adding it to your car.

Hmm.. sounds a lot like +50 gp for armor spikes to be added to armor to me.

The after-market argument is a good one, especially for mundane armor. You can order armor spikes with the armor, or have them added later by replacing or heavily modifying existing parts. But all that modification would compromise a suit of masterwork or magic armor.

The +50 price for armor spikes is an option intended to be added to the cost of armor when it's purchased/manufactured. Otherwise, the price would be simply "50", and there'd be a note specifying that an armorsmith is needed to add the spikes to the armor.

Compare the +50 price of armor spikes to the +2000 price for Mithral armor. The price of a mithral chain shirt is 2100, or [price of armor] +2000. Same goes for armor spikes. Both are extra qualities of armor determined when the armor is made.

You can't just "lend" the spikes out, but you can certainly have the spikes removed by an armorsmith and then fitted on a different set of armor.

So, say I find a suit of +5 adamantite plate with armor spikes. Using your model, if I remove the spikes and attach them to my hireling's scale mail, what happens? Are the spikes Masterwork? Are they +5? Are they even adamantite?

Your model doesn't make sense. The spikes are a part of the armor itself. Look at the image of the Demon Armor in the DMG--those spikes aren't detachable.

You can certainly buy armor spikes by themselves, but they won't do you anygood until they are attached to the armor. That's why it's +50 gp, because you need an armorsmith to attach them, you can't just screw them on yourself.

They can be enchanted seperately from the armor, and they can then be removed and added to a different set of armor, without ruining the armor or the spikes.

I can see your point of view here, but I disagree.

*shrug* That's your privilige, but I think it's pretty clear that a weapon needs to be masterwork before it can be enchanted.

Armor spikes are considered to be weapons, and thus would need to be created as masterwork items.

It costs +300 gp to make a weapon a masterwork item.

Seems pretty clear to me.

So under the model outlined above, how much would it cost to enchant a spiked shield of bashing +1? Meaning, would you have to have both a masterwork shield and masterwork shield spikes?

Of course not. You'd just need a masterwork spiked shield. Such an item would be a Masterwork Shield (reduces penalties by 1).

Same thing with armor spikes.

You seem to be making a huge deal over a mere 300 gp. By the time you are able to enchant the armor spikes, that is a drop in the bucket. What exactly is the big deal here?

The magnitude of the cost is irrelevant. It's a rules question.

The huge deal is that you're rarely wrong. I find it interesting to argue this topic with you, because in this instance I do think you're wrong.

-z

EDIT: removed nitpicking

 

[Zaruthustran]

And now I must ask: Why are you choosing to turn this into semantic nitpicking rather than let your arguement stand on it's own merits?

Hey pal, you're the one that made the reading is fundamental crack.

Forget the nitpicking. I'm sorry I took your bait. Please, just respond to the points above if you wish to continue the argument.

-z

 

[Mistwell]

Caliban, I was never trying to instigate anything, nor was anything I said rude. Maybe you read a tone of voice into something I wrote, but I assure you there was no rude tone intended. I really think either you are being overly sensitive about this, or you have something against me for some reason. Either way, it should end.


Edit: In fact Russ, I've asked for the thread to be closed.

 

[Zaruthustran]

"Russ"?

 

[Caliban]

As Mistwell illustrated, at first you simply restated your opinion without addressing my argument. Restating an opinion, followed by "How many ways do you want me to say it?" is essentially resorting to "Because I said so."

No, it's not. I was illustrating the various ways in which the spikes were weapons, not armor. This arguement is ridiculous.

Okay, I could see that working for mundane armor. How about magical armor? What, Joe armorsmith simply drills through that +5 Adamantite Armor of Fortification?

Depends on what your DM rules: Do you need special tools to work adamantite?

If the answer is yes, then "Joe armorsmith" won't be able to do anything with your adamantite armor. You would need to go the guy with the tools to work it. And "Joe armorsmith" wouldn't be able to repair your adamantite armor either.

If the answer is no, then "Joe armorsmith" would be able to work it like any other set of armor, except that the DC on the craft check would be higher.

The after-market argument is a good one, especially for mundane armor. You can order armor spikes with the armor, or have them added later by replacing or heavily modifying existing parts. But all that modification would compromise a suit of masterwork or magic armor.

Really, where does it state this? I believe you could add the spikes without compromising the enchantment of the armor.

The +50 price for armor spikes is an option intended to be added to the cost of armor when it's purchased/manufactured.

Show me exactly where it states this please. Because all I see is "You can have spikes added to your armor." To me, that sounds like you just need a set of armor and you can have spikes added to it (presumably by whoever you are buying the spikes from).

Otherwise, the price would be simply "50", and there'd be a note specifying that an armorsmith is needed to add the spikes to the armor.

Once the spikes are added to the armor, they are part of the armor, and the entire set is worth +50 gp, until you have them forcibly removed.

That is why it is +50 gp. The value of the armor increases once they are added.

Compare the +50 price of armor spikes to the +2000 price for Mithral armor. The price of a mithral chain shirt is 2100, or [price of armor] +2000. Same goes for armor spikes. Both are extra qualities of armor determined when the armor is made.

No, because spikes aren't armor. They would be priced under the "other items" section on mithral.

Why on earth would you want Mithral spikes anyway? They would cost more than the armor itself (10 lbs of spikes x 500 gp per pound = +5,000 gp, or +2,500 gp if you count them as half weight).

The spikes could be made out of normal steel.

So, say I find a suit of +5 adamantite plate with armor spikes. Using your model, if I remove the spikes and attach them to my hireling's scale mail, what happens? Are the spikes Masterwork? Are they +5? Are they even adamantite?

It would depend entirely on how the spikes were contructed.

Most likely they would be normal steel spikes, but they could be adamantite spikes they had wanted to shell out the +3000 gp for them.

Spikes are enchanted seperately from the armor, so they wouldn't have any of the armors enchantments on them.

Your model doesn't make sense.

You have done nothing to show that.

I happen to think it makes complete sense. Spikes are just weapons permanently fastened to your armor. They are constructed and priced seperately, but they increase the value of the armor once installed. (Just like a really spiffy set of white-walls on your car.)

The spikes are a part of the armor itself. Look at the image of the Demon Armor in the DMG--those spikes aren't detachable.

Is that even spiked armor? The item description certainly doesn't mention it. It looks like the "spikes" are just an artistic embellishment.

Please use a real example.

I can see your point of view here, but I disagree.

That's certainly your prerogative.

So under the model outlined above, how much would it cost to enchant a spiked shield of bashing +1? Meaning, would you have to have both a masterwork shield and masterwork shield spikes?

Shield spikes are handled completely differently than armor spikes.

Shield spikes don't need to be masterwork, because the shield spikes are not enchanted seperately from the shield. They just change the shield from a blunt weapon into a piercing weapon that does 1d6 damage. (PHB, page 106, Shield Spikes: " These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon that deals 1d6 points of damage (X2 crit) no matter whether the shield is small or large. Buckler or tower shields cannot have shield spikes.")

The shield itself would have to be masterwork, but can be enhanted with both offensive and defensive enhancements.

(See the DMG, page 179, ARMOR, Shield, "Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a bash. The bashing shield enchantment, however, does grant a +1 bonus to attacks and damage (see the item description). You could, in fact, build a shield that also acted as a magic weapon, but the magic offensive bonus cost would need to be added into the defensive bonus cost of the shield.")

Of course not. You'd just need a masterwork spiked shield. Such an item would be a Masterwork Shield (reduces penalties by 1).

You would only need a masterwork shield. You could add shield spikes to it before or after enchanting the shield, it doesn't make a difference. (Although if the shield has the bashing enchantment, the armor spikes are redundant.)

Same thing with armor spikes.

No, because armor spikes are handled completely differently under the rules.

Armor spikes add a capability to your armor that did not exist before, and are treated as a weapon seperate from your armor when it comes to enchanting them. Thus, they would need to be created as masterwork weapons (seperate from the masterwork armor) before they can be enchanted as weapons. This is because they are enchanted seperately from the armor, and is regardless of wether you think they can be added later or not.

You could have completely mundane armor with magical armor spikes.

Shield spikes simply modify the bashing aspect of the shield, they are not a seperate weapon, are not enchanted seperately, and do not need to be masterwork .

The magnitude of the cost is irrelevant. It's a rules question.

OK. I've started quoting specific rules for you then.

The huge deal is that you're rarely wrong. I find it interesting to argue this topic with you, because in this instance I do think you're wrong.

-z

Yeah, everyone loves to make a big deal out of it when they think they can prove me wrong on something. What do you want if you succeed? A cookie?

I have never claimed to be infallible, and I find it irritating that people act like I'm being incredibly rude when my opinion differs from theirs in areas were the rules are unclear enough to allow differing opinions. Then I get the third degree like I did today, and everyone else gets to have just an opinion, but everything I say has to be backed up with specific quotes from the rules, or I'm being arbitrary. Whatever.

 

[Mistwell]

"Russ"?

AKA Morin Stonebreaker...nevermind.

The mods seem to be reacting slowly today...hmm, go figure.

 

[Darkness]

In fact Russ, I've asked for the thread to be closed.

So you did.

The mods seem to be reacting slowly today...hmm, go figure.

Nah, it's just that they read threads before deciding on whether to close them.

Be that as it may...

The thread starter seems to be answering his own questions anyway, so there's little purpose to this thread - yet it serves to aggravate.

Closed.