Does Masterwork Spiked Armor = +1 to Armor Spike attacks?

[Mistwell]

What do you mean? The first line of the Armor Spikes entry is pretty clear: "You can have spikes added to your armor."

It's not "You can have your armor created with spikes", it's spikes can be added. Before you can add the spikes, you have to have the armor first. Otherwise you don't have anything to add them to.

The reason they are in the armor sectioni and not the weapon section is that they are useless without the armor. You can use a guantlet by itself, but armor spikes can't be. They have to be attached to the armor to be used.

Here is the argument:

Armor spikes are not martial weapons, they "count as" martial weapons. Spikes cannot be bought seperately--the cost of the spikes are "+50", as in, they add +50 to the cost of your armor. Spikes are added to armor as the armor is being made. You cannot, for instance, buy a suit of armor and later decide to add spikes to it. You'd have to buy a whole new suit of armor, and the cost would be [price of armor]+50 gp. Just like how you can't "add" masterwork quality to an existing weapon. You have to buy a whole new weapon, and the price would be [price of weapon] +300.

Otherwise, they'd just list the price of armor spikes as simply 50 -- just like they do with the weapon "Spiked Gauntlet".

I really don't think you have fully responded to this yet.

 

[Caliban]

Here is the argument:



I really don't think you have fully responded to this yet.

Yes, I think I have.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Thanks Mistwell. And like I said before, I fear arguing with Caliban. But I'm disappointed that the argument was "Because I said so."

Caliban, I know it says "Spikes can be added to armor" not "spikes can be added to armor when the armor is made". Mistwell reposted the core of my rules arguments, so I'll go present a common-sense argument.

Take a look at Regdar. Note the armor spikes on his bracers and pauldrons. Take a look at the picture of the guy in the background image of the combat section--the picture that details armor and anatomy. Note the armor spikes on his armor. Note how the armor spikes are not strapped on or attached in any way; they are integral extensions of the armor itself. The spikes *must* have been formed when the armor was made.

"Spikes can be added to armor" is meant in the same sense as "overnight shipping can be added to your order". You have the option, but you can't do it after the fact.

You cannot buy spiked plate mail and then lend the armor spikes to a pal wearing leather. I suppose a lenient DM would let you replace pieces of you existing armor, effectively letting you add spikes, but you certainly couldn't do that to masterwork or magical armor. After all, you'd be replacing your magical bracer with a mundane, spiked bracer.

Please illustrate to me how armor spikes can be "attached" to a suit of armor. Please show me how a person would pay for something that costs "+50 gp". Clearly, a person wouldn't simply count out 50 gold pieces. The plus sign indicates that the cost of armor spikes is added to the cost of something else--armor spikes, obviously, cannot be purchased alone.

I agree with you that Armor Spikes can be enchanted seperately from armor. But I differ in how you interpret that rules passage. Whereas you take it to imply that armor spikes are removable, seperate items, I take it to mean that they are treated somewhat like double weapons. As in, a seperately-enchantable part of a whole.

-z

 

[Mistwell]

Yes, I think I have.

And your explaination for why it says "+50" instead of just "50" is?

 

[Caliban]

And your explaination for why it says "+50" instead of just "50" is?

Originally posted by Caliban
The reason they are in the armor section and not the weapon section is that they are useless without the armor. You can use a guantlet by itself, but armor spikes can't be. They have to be attached to the armor to be used.

Reading is fundamental.

 

[Caliban]

Thanks Mistwell. And like I said before, I fear arguing with Caliban. But I'm disappointed that the argument was "Because I said so."

And I'm disapointed that you think that is what the arguement is.

In the future I would appreciate it if you did not call me "the great Caliban" and then immediately try to use my response to support your position, when it the opposite of what I said. And especially don't "thank" me for the privilige of twisting my words. I find it incredibly rude.

Take a look at Regdar. Note the armor spikes on his bracers and pauldrons. Take a look at the picture of the guy in the background image of the combat section--the picture that details armor and anatomy. Note the armor spikes on his armor. Note how the armor spikes are not strapped on or attached in any way; they are integral extensions of the armor itself. The spikes *must* have been formed when the armor was made.

Nope. You can easily drill small holes through the metal and attach the spikes that way. You just need to add another piece on the other side of the armor to brace it. Obviously you would need an armorsmith for this, and that is why they aren't priced seperately: they have to be added by the armorsmith, you can't just buy them and pop them on.

Take a look at the picture of the full plate/spiked full plate on page 106 of the PHB. You can see where normal studs have been replaced with spikes, and smaller pieces of armor have been replaced with extended spikes, or have had spiked pieces bolted on.

"Spikes can be added to armor" is meant in the same sense as "overnight shipping can be added to your order". You have the option, but you can't do it after the fact.

I think it's more in the sense of adding an "after-market" modification to a car. Unless you have ranks of "Craft: car mechanic" yourself, you would need have a mechanic add it to your vehicle for you. You could even order the after-market modifications when you buy the vehicle, in which case there would be an additional charge for adding it to your car.

Hmm.. sounds a lot like +50 gp for armor spikes to be added to armor to me. (The +50 gp includes the installation fee, most likely. )

You cannot buy spiked plate mail and then lend the armor spikes to a pal wearing leather. I suppose a lenient DM would let you replace pieces of you existing armor, effectively letting you add spikes, but you certainly couldn't do that to masterwork or magical armor. After all, you'd be replacing your magical bracer with a mundane, spiked bracer.

You can't just "lend" the spikes out, but you can certainly have the spikes removed by an armorsmith and then fitted on a different set of armor.

Please illustrate to me how armor spikes can be "attached" to a suit of armor.

See above.

Please show me how a person would pay for something that costs "+50 gp". Clearly, a person wouldn't simply count out 50 gold pieces. The plus sign indicates that the cost of armor spikes is added to the cost of something else--armor spikes, obviously, cannot be purchased alone.

You can certainly buy armor spikes by themselves, but they won't do you anygood until they are attached to the armor. That's why it's +50 gp, because you need an armorsmith to attach them, you can't just screw them on yourself.

They can be enchanted seperately from the armor, and they can then be removed and added to a different set of armor, without ruining the armor or the spikes.

I agree with you that Armor Spikes can be enchanted seperately from armor.

That's a relief.

But I differ in how you interpret that rules passage. Whereas you take it to imply that armor spikes are removable, seperate items, I take it to mean that they are treated somewhat like double weapons. As in, a seperately-enchantable part of a whole.

-z

*shrug* That's your privilige, but I think it's pretty clear that a weapon needs to be masterwork before it can be enchanted.

Armor spikes are considered to be weapons, and thus would need to be created as masterwork items.

It costs +300 gp to make a weapon a masterwork item.

Seems pretty clear to me.

You seem to be making a huge deal over a mere 300 gp. By the time you are able to enchant the armor spikes, that is a drop in the bucket. What exactly is the big deal here?

 

[Zaruthustran]

Edit: message edited because this reply came before Caliban's reply above.

 

[Caliban]

That's not a strong argument. And it didn't really address my point (pun intended): armor spikes cannot be attached; they are an integral part of the armor itself.

And that's not the question Mistwell asked me, was it?

So is reading comprehension.

So it seems.

 

[Zaruthustran]

And that's not the question Mistwell asked me, was it?




So it seems.

Actually, yes, so it seems. Here's what Mistwell asked you:

Mistwell-Here is the argument:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armor spikes are not martial weapons, they "count as" martial weapons. Spikes cannot be bought seperately--the cost of the spikes are "+50", as in, they add +50 to the cost of your armor. Spikes are added to armor as the armor is being made. You cannot, for instance, buy a suit of armor and later decide to add spikes to it. You'd have to buy a whole new suit of armor, and the cost would be [price of armor]+50 gp. Just like how you can't "add" masterwork quality to an existing weapon. You have to buy a whole new weapon, and the price would be [price of weapon] +300.

Otherwise, they'd just list the price of armor spikes as simply 50 -- just like they do with the weapon "Spiked Gauntlet".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note that the point of the quoted argument is that spikes cannot be bought seperately.

-z

 

[Caliban]

Actually, yes, so it seems. Here's what Mistwell asked you:



Note that the point of the quoted argument is that spikes cannot be bought seperately.

-z

And that was not the post I was responding to. Here is the post that I was responding to:

And your explaination for why it says "+50" instead of just "50" is?

Reading Comprehension is fundamamental, it seems.

And now I must ask: Why are you choosing to turn this into semantic nitpicking rather than let your arguement stand on it's own merits? Mistwell seems to have been successfull in instigating a pointless arguement, if that was his goal.