Does Melee Training make Deft Strike redundant?

[Prestidigitalis]

First off, thanks for all the feedback.

Maybe I should have saved some space and stuck with "What is Deft Strike good for? If I have Melee Training, can't I get much of the same effect by charging?"

I keep forgetting that charging ends the turn. I'm not sure, I think my DMs may be forgetting to enforce it. Then again, I may be ending my turns with charges, just by coincidence.

In fact, I'm keenly aware of the importance of positioning. It's just that as a Halfling Artful Dodger, I don't expect to have any serious difficulty getting into position for CA once I get into close combat.

Anyway, the point was that I thought I might be missing something, and you have all kindly shouted "YES!".

So thank you.

 

[Klaus]

Here are feats that alter Deft Strike:

Ghostwalker Style
Harlequin Style
Hunting Wolf Style
Leafrunner Scout
Serpent Fang Style
Battle-Scarred Veteran
Daring Performer
Fluttering Leaf Style
Trickster's Blade Style

 

[Saeviomagy]

1. Move action doesn't get me close enough to the opponent:
- Use charge to close the gap, get +1 to hit, or
- Use ranged Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage, or
- Use Deft Strike, flank and get sneak attack (well, assuming you were a couple of squares out: note that you usually don't get much of a choice with charge)

2. One square away from the opponent (too close to charge):
- Use ranged Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage, or
- Shift one square, then use melee Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage
- Use Deft Strike, flank and get sneak attack and then shift away again

3. Dazed, one square away from the opponent (too close to charge):
- Use ranged Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage
- Use Deft Strike, flank and get sneak attack

4. Dazed, one square away from the opponent (too close to charge) and with an adjacent opponent threatening an OA if I use a ranged attack:
- Use ranged Sly Flourish, get +Cha damage, risk an OA
- Use Deft Strike, risk OA, flank and get sneak attack

There, fixed it for you.

 

[Legildur]

I can't imagine my halfling artful dodger rogue without Deft Strike!

The flexibility it provides still astounds my DM; great for sniping, great for getting to a flank position.

I can imagine that the melee basic training feat could be useful (when combined with the Warlord's Commander's Strike) in order to gain sneak attack damage IF you haven't already delivered sneak attack damage already during your turn, as that is the only time it would be beneficial (artful dodger halflings don't do much basic attack damage otherwise).... but I wouldn't rely on it to replace the Deft Strike at-will power.

I try to pick feats that are used regularly, rather than occasionally. Your Warlord would typically be better off granting the bonus attack to one of your defenders (assuming your party has any).

 

[BobTheNob]

Deft strike is thorughly awesome. Our rogue once had a fight where she stood behind the tank (i.e. tank between her and target) and was able to deft strike in/shift out. i.e. she did 3or4 rounds of attacks without putting herself in danger as the they couldnt get past the fighter to her.

Then, in another fight, she used deft strike, dropped her target, and thanks to the fact she did not have to use a move action to get to her target, was able to then use the move action she had saved to run into cover (as there were archers shredding the party). As the DM, I congratulated the player on such an insightful move!

Thats the kicker, Deft Strike puts movement on your standard action, leaving your move action available for other use

If you use maps properly (I mean, no mistakes and get all your positioning right) abilities like Deft strike shine is a way that the simple text does not do justice.

When used right, Deft Strike = Awesome!

 

[Prestidigitalis]

I try to pick feats that are used regularly, rather than occasionally. Your Warlord would typically be better off granting the bonus attack to one of your defenders (assuming your party has any).

As it happens, the party I am joining has no defender -- aside from the warlord, it's pretty much all ranged attackers. I am designing my character partly to take advantage of those bonus attacks. Assuming the Warlord has Int 18 or higher (6th level characters), my rogue will be able to do:

d4 (dagger) + 2 (enhancement) + 5 (dexterity) + 1 (Two Weapon Fighting) + 4 (Commander's Strike) = avg 14.5 damage.

Add in the occasional OA or charge attack, and I think Melee Training will more than pay for itself.

(Note: I'm taking Two Weapon Fighting largely as a pre-req for Two Weapon Defense, and for the character concept as well. I know it's not a great feat by itself.)

 

[Prestidigitalis]

There, fixed it for you.

Hmm. Believe it or not, that's the first time I've ever been FIFY'd.

I grant your point, but the difference between +2d6 and +4 is not *that* big. A small improvement in a quasi-rare situation (one attack in five, maybe?) is not necessarily worth losing the alternative: Piercing Strike.

On the other hand, when do you really need Piercing Strike, for that matter? Against Soldiers or creatures with situationally enhanced AC, I guess.

Maybe it's time for me to go back and read the Rogue handbooks...

 

[Saeviomagy]

Hmm. Believe it or not, that's the first time I've ever been FIFY'd.

Ah, sorry if that sounded malicious or negative. I just figured it was the quickest way to make the point instead of re-stating what you'd written. Looking back, I guess it comes across as pretty brusque.

I grant your point, but the difference between +2d6 and +4 is not *that* big. A small improvement in a quasi-rare situation (one attack in five, maybe?) is not necessarily worth losing the alternative: Piercing Strike.

Actually as a rogue, it's more likely to be +2d8 - backstabber is one of the best damaging feats you can pick up. Additionally there's the hit bonus, which adds even more (+2 normally, +3 if you get nimble blade, which is also probably a good idea).

According to monster stats, piercing strike averages out to around +3 to hit...

On the other hand, when do you really need Piercing Strike, for that matter? Against Soldiers or creatures with situationally enhanced AC, I guess.

Maybe it's time for me to go back and read the Rogue handbooks...

Personally I think it's a good idea to choose EITHER sly flourish OR piercing strike. At heroic, and assuming that +3 average, sly flourish does slightly more damage, plus it can be used at range and works even when you don't have CA (the damage benefit of piercing strike relies on you doing sneak attack).

At paragon the two draw roughly even, and at epic piercing strike is the better of the two (lack of CA and ranged ability notwithstanding).

That said, that is using the assumption that you'll only have one OR the other. If you can have both, then you'll end up with an edge: how much of an edge depends on exactly what monsters you fight though, and personally I think it falls short of being able to combine movement and an attack into a single action.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Saeviomagy: No worries, I wasn't offended.

Basically, the Rogue is a class that has a LOT of interdependencies. I'm still figuring out how they work. Thanks for the tips, all of you.

 

[Turtlejay]

Here are feats that alter Deft Strike:

Ghostwalker Style
Harlequin Style
Hunting Wolf Style
Leafrunner Scout
Serpent Fang Style
Battle-Scarred Veteran
Daring Performer
Fluttering Leaf Style
Trickster's Blade Style

Daring Performer is like getting an extra encounter power. It lets you make your 1/encounter bluff check to gain CA instead of Deft Strike's movement. Useful.