Does OA make Fighters better martial artists than Monks?

[Bastoche]

As stated above, a fighter would likely be using an enchanted guantlet. Adding energy damage types cab be done faster than the monk damage increase.

This would go against the concept we try to work out here. I have no problems with a fighter being a better unarmed warrior than the monk, quite the opposite actually.

 

[Chun-tzu]

I agree with DM-Matt, in that generally speaking, the Monk should be better than most Fighters in unarmed combat. After all, martial arts is WHY people play monks (like combat is why you play a fighter, stealth is why you play a rogue, flashy spells is why you play a wizard). Take martial arts away from a monk and you're left with nothing to hold the character together.

There are a couple things that still give monks the edge, however. Although fighters get more feats than monks, check out the Shintao monk prestige class, that gets FIVE bonus feats over 10 levels. These monks, at least, do not fall far behind martial artist fighters in number of feats, and they have some other nifty abilities as well (like Touch the Void Dragon at 1st level!).

And while fighters can make up for the damage difference using magic, it's always going to be the case that magic gives you an edge over no magic. The question is, what magic items did the monk get while the fighter got those enchanted gauntlets? Sword and Fist and Magic of Faerun include some good magic items specifically for monks, like the Bracers of Striking, which can be enhanced any way that other weapons can. So, while a fighter can get enchanted gloves, the monk can get enchanted bracers that can match those gloves (admittedly, at a slightly higher cost, about 1000 gp more than gauntlets).

So, there are ways for monks to make up for those advantages a pure fighter or a fighter/monk would have.

 

[Avatar of the North]

well one thing that helps monk is the option to swap out their set feats (pg 19 of OA) for things on table 6-1 (on page 79 of OA), though they must met the pre-requisite feats to do so. Other than that true a multi-classed fighter/monk will be able to get MA mastery easier, but the same is also true of fighters and feat chains.

Most character can barely finish certain feat chains and fighters can end up with 2 or maybe 3 feat chains (which may also include a MA Mastery as well, now there is a sick thought)

Also look at this way, most of the MA styles have skill requirements that a single classed fighter can not met until around 4th to 6th level.

Empty Hand style
Monk of min 6th level (1st Monks virtual unarmed strike, 1st power attack, human Sunder, 2nd level sub Ki shout for deflect arrows, 3rd level fists of Iron, 6th level: Eagle claw)

Fighter of min of 4th level for feats and skill requirement

Mighty Works
Monk of min 3 Level (1st level virtual unarmed strike, 1st level stunning attack, human: Improved Grapple, 1st level: Choke hold, 2nd level class: Deflect arrows, 3rd: Fists of Iron)

Fighter of min 8 Level (Because of stunning fist prerequisite of BAB +8)

Mighty Works 2
Monk of min 9th Level (Class 6th level: Improved Trip, 6th level: Iron will, 9th: Earth's Embrace, 9th: Ki Shout)

Fighter of min 9th level : (Due to the fact that Choke hold requires Stunning fist as a pre-req and the fighter would have picked up stunning fist at 8th level)

Foot and Fist
Monk of Min 3th level: (1st level virtual unarmed strike, 1st level: Power attack, Human: Round about kick, 1st Sub Stunning attack for Flying kick, 2nd Deflect Arrows, 3rd: Fists of Iron)

Fighter of min 7th Level: (Due to skill requirement)

Meditation of War
Monk of min 9th Level: (1st level virtual unarmed strike, 1st Stunning ability, Human: Anything, 1st: Anything, 3rd: Anything, 6th: Falling starstrike, 9th: Freezing the life blood)

Fighter of min 10th level: (this is due to the fact that both Falling starstrike and Freezing the lifeblood require stunning attack which has a pre-req of BAB +8 and thus you'd need your 9th level and fighter 10 feat to get them)


I think i've show monks can actually achive MOST of the style faster than a fighter due to the swapping the class feature allowed in OA

 

[green slime]

Excellent work, Avatar of the North!

 

[DM_Matt]

RE:Avatar

But make it a monk one or two/fighter all the way from then on and you see everytihng happen MUCH faster.

 

[Darkness]

Re: RE:Avatar

But make it a monk one or two/fighter all the way from then on and you see everytihng happen MUCH faster.

Of course; where would be the point to it otherwise?

That is, if you take levels of fighter, you ought to get better combat abilities. But you miss out on all the other things a monk gets...

 

[Cabral]

I agree with DM-Matt, in that generally speaking, the Monk should be better than most Fighters in unarmed combat. After all, martial arts is WHY people play monks (like combat is why you play a fighter, stealth is why you play a rogue, flashy spells is why you play a wizard). Take martial arts away from a monk and you're left with nothing to hold the character together.

Not quite. Martial arts is why you play a fighter. "Martial Arts" is equivelant to the art of combat. Don't pick the monk class to become an unarmed combat machine.

From what I remember of monk's (real-life, forgot what philosophy.) explanation of the origin of the martial arts style he studied (a form of kung fu, I think), it started as excercises to keep monastic monks in shape. It was excercise that enhanced their lives, not the focus of their studies.

Monks should be scholars and sages who occaisionally visit the gym. The D&D monk has more of the fighter elements in the concept and the class implementation.

Personally, I think Fighters get one perk that I consider unfair: Weapon Specialization. I think it should be open to everyone with BAB of 4+ )

I hope D&D continues to move from Class choice as character definition. As I've said before, though maybe not on the message boards, if you send out a call for a Paladin in-game, you might get someone with Paladin levels, Cleric levels, Fighter levels, or even a Sorcerer/Wizard with specialized spells.

Darkness said it best:

That is, in 3e, there usually are several ways to do something.