OSR Does "Old School" in OSR only apply to D&D?

[Thomas Shey]

Perhaps not. Although not caring about history while being into the Old School Renaissance once again seems bass-ackwards.

Well, "being into the Old School Renaissance" can, for some people, just translate into "finding other people who realize the last time the game was worth playing".

 

[Golden age Superhero]

There is Mutant Future which is a Gamma World retro-clone.

 

[Random Task]

I am pretty sure for most OSR folks, only OD&D, AD&D pre-OA and B/X are "Old School"

One thing that interests me in this is the seemingly ongoing muted response to the republishing of The Fantasy Trip. Time period of origin is pretty squarely old school. I assume the relative lack of enthusiasm is due to the pretty strong fork in design in TFT that was clearly heading towards a different design philosophy that is unlike Ur-D&D.

 

[Thomas Shey]

One thing that interests me in this is the seemingly ongoing muted response to the republishing of The Fantasy Trip. Time period of origin is pretty squarely old school. I assume the relative lack of enthusiasm is due to the pretty strong fork in design in TFT that was clearly heading towards a different design philosophy that is unlike Ur-D&D.

That gets back to the difference between Old School and OSR you sometimes see (though some of the latter aren't always interested in the difference which can make people in spaces designed for a more broad use more than a little testy).

 

[Desdichado]

I don't know why I'm very ornery about an overly expansive and incoherent usage of the word OSR, because I don't even identify with the OSR exactly, but the OSR is specifically about playing retroclones of D&D. It's not just for any game that's vaguely oldish, it's not for clones of any other game, it's not a playstyle (I mean it is, but it bothers me that there's a playstyle that's hijacked the term and therefore games that aren't really anything at all like old D&D are considered OSR) or anything like that. And I'm not saying that I think anything is wrong with any of those things, merely that they're something different than the OSR, because they're not retroclones of older D&D. Perhaps part of it was I was there watching it happen when the OSR was birthed in the first place.

Of course, like I said, I really don't have any reason to be so dogmatic about this though. I don't particularly like the older rules, or clones of them, without significant house-rules to make them more what I want them to be, and I am not at all interested in the so-called OSR playstyle. I'm fascinated with the OSR because I'm old, I remember when those old D&D rules were current, and I like the free-wheeling, DIY, everybody does their own thing their own way approach that was common in the old days, and the OSR sometimes seems to capture at least a fraction of that. Although, maybe that's why the OSR as playstyle angle annoys me; it tries to say "this is how you should play" which is the exact opposite of that "everybody do your own thing" and DIY approach. I still feel like One True Wayism, which can come from anywhere, of course, is statistically more likely to come from the OSR, which misses the whole point.

 

[Desdichado]

It's a couple years old now (or more) but this is the best exegesis I've ever seen on what the OSR is.

A Historical Look at the OSR — Part I

Old-school Renaissance / OSR theory and design.

osrsimulacrum.blogspot.com

A Historical Look at the OSR — Part II

Old-school Renaissance / OSR theory and design.

osrsimulacrum.blogspot.com

A Historical Look at the OSR — Part III

Old-school Renaissance / OSR theory and design.

osrsimulacrum.blogspot.com

A Historical Look at the OSR — Part IV

Old-school Renaissance / OSR theory and design.

osrsimulacrum.blogspot.com

A Historical Look at the OSR — Part V

Old-school Renaissance / OSR theory and design.

osrsimulacrum.blogspot.com

As for me; I'm old-fashioned but I'm not old school.

 

[Mannahnin]

It's a couple years old now (or more) but this is the best exegesis I've ever seen on what the OSR is.

I'm 90% on board with these, and use these definitions regularly, but I've also seen a few big OSR stalwarts get annoyed at the notion that OSR doesn't include renewed interest in and play of other, non-D&D, old school games.

To my mind it's hard to have a renaissance of something if it never really went away, so, for example, something like Call of Cthulhu, which has gone through various editions but no huge edition changes and shifts in play style/philosophy like D&D has, and has stayed in print, wouldn't make sense to have the R at the end. Even though it is indisputably an Old School game.

 

[Desdichado]

I'm 90% on board with these, and use these definitions regularly, but I've also seen a few big OSR stalwarts get annoyed at the notion that OSR doesn't include renewed interest in and play of other, non-D&D, old school games.

To my mind it's hard to have a renaissance of something if it never really went away, so, for example, something like Call of Cthulhu, which has gone through various editions but no huge edition changes and shifts in play style/philosophy like D&D has, and has stayed in print, wouldn't make sense to have the R at the end. Even though it is indisputably an Old School game.

Same. That said, the letters in the OSR shouldn't be taken too literally. It's not just a revival of anything old school; it's a movement that was specifically created to make older versions of D&D available again (in retroclone form) and enable the printing of new material compatible with those old rules. It doesn't surprise me that people like more older games than D&D, but that's a parallel movement to the OSR, which was always about... specifically... D&D.

And it's worth observing, as I think it was you who said, we're in a post OSR stage. Movements that are themselves cadet branches of the OSR, or parallel developments to the OSR, etc. Those movements can't (coherently) use the exact same label as the OSR and claim to be the OSR.

And the NSR isn't a pejorative. Yochai Gal, or whatever his name is, is rather notoriously gatekeepery and exclusionary. But to his credit, he made a brave attempt to call Cairn an NSR game and to get the NSR label to stick. Because it—obviously—is a new thing that maybe sprang out of the OSR but which is clearly going in a new direction. Hence, it can't really be the OSR.

But there's a lot of resistance to that, so we end up with an incoherent state where people have to take the time to explain what they mean by OSR and which OSR they actually are referring to, because people are resistant to allowing new labels to take hold.

Whatever. Like I said; I don't know why this bothers me so much, because I don't even call myself an OSRian of any kind, really. I guess the inner taxonomist in me rebels at the quantum state of a workable definition for the label.

 

[RealAlHazred]

OSR is whatever I played back in the day, or exact retroclones of it.

So, Cepheus Engine (based on Classic Traveller), RetroQuest (based on RuneQuest), and OSE (based on B/X) are OSR games. DCC and LotFP, on the other hand, is not -- it bears little resemblance to the D&D I played back then.

We also played Hero System (Champions I / II / III, baby!) but that didn't need a retroclone since, for the most part, few players cared whether or not it was supported by the publisher.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I'm 90% on board with these, and use these definitions regularly, but I've also seen a few big OSR stalwarts get annoyed at the notion that OSR doesn't include renewed interest in and play of other, non-D&D, old school games.

To my mind it's hard to have a renaissance of something if it never really went away, so, for example, something like Call of Cthulhu, which has gone through various editions but no huge edition changes and shifts in play style/philosophy like D&D has, and has stayed in print, wouldn't make sense to have the R at the end. Even though it is indisputably an Old School game.

There's a good argument there.

It gets more complicated with games that have gone through more thorough changes over time, though, or are otherwise extinct.