Pathfinder 1E Does pathfinder strike anyone as too gamey?

Ahnehnois

First Post
Ding ding ding we have a winner... THAT IS ONE OF THE MAIN, and maybe the BIGGEST problems. if you want to play the best melee class play a druid...
I've played druids and fighters. Pretty sure the fighters were better in melee.

Fighters have never in the history of the game had even at 19th level an ability with as much versatility or power as a 4th level wizard spell that the wizard got at 7th level...
Okay. Sounds fine to me.

Consider the contrary. What if a fighter does have an ability that grants as much versatility or power as a spell? That makes the spell pretty worthless. The spellcaster devoted years of his life to learning it, petitioned extraplanar entities for its use, is drained of power after casting it, and gets an outcome that any mortal man could have gotten with sufficient training and effort? That's not very magical, now is it?

The fighter's viability as a character is substantiated by his reliability and durability, not his ability to achieve the same outcomes a powerful wizard can.

that is a great example of the first 6 levels of the game... Fighters are tough, and casters have burst effectiveness... but by level 7 you don't run out of spells, and fighters have 2 crumbey saves....
The last part is an issue. The lack of granularity in saving throw math produces martial characters that don't have the saves they should. A sensibly implemented medium save helps to solve this. In practice, most fighters are drowning in save-boosting magic items and the issue is largely patched, but that is not ideal.

And to be fair, not running out of spells is somewhat of an issue, too. Though one that doesn't create a ton of issues in practice because it's unusual for a high-level character's resources per time to be tested.

isn't that part of her argument right there??? Again She has even in other threads claimed 2e was the best edtion... so please tell me what part of WANTS TO PLAY A MARTIAL WEAPON BASED CLASS THAT DOES AMAZING THINGS is wrong?
It isn't. I've seen many a fighter do some amazing things, without resorting to any of this Bo9S stuff.

The problem is people who refuse to see the things a fighter does as amazing.
 
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Rob1207

First Post
Can we skip the book of nine and the codzilla argument and get back to gunslingers having grit that lets them expand powers by spending from a pool that comes back when you crit... and alchemists that can make 8 bombs today, 8 bombs tomorrow, 8 bombs the next day, all without any change to supplies or knowledge... but can't make 9 today... even though they have the time and money...
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
Can we skip the book of nine and the codzilla argument and get back to gunslingers having grit that lets them expand powers by spending from a pool that comes back when you crit... and alchemists that can make 8 bombs today, 8 bombs tomorrow, 8 bombs the next day, all without any change to supplies or knowledge... but can't make 9 today... even though they have the time and money...
Sure. "Grit" is one of the most misleading names for an ability I've ever seen. Borderline-supernatural tricks that disappear every day for some reason are not "gritty". Characters that have to plot out the use of some ephemeral resource for fear that they might run out are not "gritty". True "grit" is exactly the opposite. "Gritty" characters just do stuff when it needs to be done.

A lot of the problems with the PF gun rules have little to do with the guns themselves, and more to do with the redundant class (how is a gunslinger not a fighter who uses guns?) and the metagame-y abilities that go along with it.
 

Bluenose

Adventurer
yea and she also said the 2e fighter and the warblade where what she was looking for. Don't you dare say she wants a wizard of all of us she has been the most clair in wanting to play a weapon based martial character that can do amazing things... if you don't want that class to be fighter she is even willing to play a class with a different name as long as she gets to be a weapon using martial class that can do cool and amazing things...

isn't that part of her argument right there??? Again She has even in other threads claimed 2e was the best edtion... so please tell me what part of WANTS TO PLAY A MARTIAL WEAPON BASED CLASS THAT DOES AMAZING THINGS is wrong?

How about being able to do non-amazing things? Taking someone's limb off with an axe blow, stunning them with a mace to the head, slicing a tendon in their leg to make it useless, taking up an Iron Door defensive stance to be temporarily unassailable, parrying into a riposte... Anyone wanting to say they think D&D Fighters should have "realistic" capabilities needs to explain why they don't get those things. It's not because the game doesn't support severing limbs, stunning, disabling, because it does. It's just that they're required to be done by magic no matter how unrealistic that is. And frankly, a mundane Fighter being able to do those things would be amazing by D&D's standards, even if reality wouldn't agree.
 

I've played druids and fighters. Pretty sure the fighters were better in melee.
at what level? because at level 5+ not only are druids better, but there animal compainion is close enough to equal to the fighter that you need to look real close to see the fighter being any better.



Consider the contrary. What if a fighter does have an ability that grants as much versatility or power as a spell? That makes the spell pretty worthless. The spellcaster devoted years of his life to learning it, petitioned extraplanar entities for its use, is drained of power after casting it, and gets an outcome that any mortal man could have gotten with sufficient training and effort? That's not very magical, now is it?
lets turn that around That makes the warrior pretty worthless. the warrior devoted years of his life to learning, petitioned master to train for it, is exusted after a fight and gets an outcome any mortal man could have gotten out of a book? that no very heroic is it?

I don't want any of my warriors to be 'just a farm boy' although some of them start at that. What I want is a PC that can be as extraordinary as I want with out being a spell caster.

The fighter's viability as a character is substantiated by his reliability and durability, not his ability to achieve the same outcomes a powerful wizard can.
if the wizard never had more then a few spells per day that would work... but instead you get the best of both worlds out of wizard.

The last part is an issue. The lack of granularity in saving throw math produces martial characters that don't have the saves they should. A sensibly implemented medium save helps to solve this. In practice, most fighters are drowning in save-boosting magic items and the issue is largely patched, but that is not ideal.
in myth and magic figters start at +5/+5/+4

It isn't. I've seen many a fighter do some amazing things, without resorting to any of this Bo9S stuff.

The problem is people who refuse to see the things a fighter does as amazing.

ok, lets start here then... educate me, show me what your lets say 12th level fighter can do.
 

How about being able to do non-amazing things? Taking someone's limb off with an axe blow, stunning them with a mace to the head, slicing a tendon in their leg to make it useless, taking up an Iron Door defensive stance to be temporarily unassailable, parrying into a riposte... Anyone wanting to say they think D&D Fighters should have "realistic" capabilities needs to explain why they don't get those things. It's not because the game doesn't support severing limbs, stunning, disabling, because it does. It's just that they're required to be done by magic no matter how unrealistic that is. And frankly, a mundane Fighter being able to do those things would be amazing by D&D's standards, even if reality wouldn't agree.

I'd buy that for a dollar...
 

HardcoreDandDGirl

First Post
I don't really think I'm missing anything from most of the current discussion. HardcoreDandDGirl seems to want a character who encroaches on the wizard mojo rather than a mundane martialist no matter how effective he is.
really? that is what you take away from me asking to be a mythic hero... I guess in 3.x/pathfinder being a useful and exciting character is a casters mojo
 

Starfox

Hero
How about being able to do non-amazing things? Taking someone's limb off with an axe blow, stunning them with a mace to the head, slicing a tendon in their leg to make it useless, taking up an Iron Door defensive stance to be temporarily unassailable, parrying into a riposte.

DnD is a hp game. There are some abilities that bypasses hp as a defense (save or die, some combat maneuvers, sneak attack to a degree) and these have always been problematic. The fighter is the class built most around the hp mechanic - both dealing and taking hp very well. Other classes have to "cheat" and use workarounds because they don't have the fighters very good base numbers. If we give fighters ways to cheat too, we have to reduce those base numbers, and all classes become more or less the same.

This was a big problem in 4E. Because there were so few effects to build powers from, and a constant influx of new powers, all classes ended up with all sorts of powers. Nothing was unique or special. All classes having all powers means the only real difference between classes are the base numbers - which fighters were still the best at. Hence the 4E fighter ended up horribly overpowered.

Now I am not saying the 3E, 3.5, or Pathfinder fighter is perfect. I agree fighters could well deserve a good Will save, for example. But giving fighters all the good stuff other classes have cheapens it. Part of the pride of being a fighter is to say "Me and My Sword Only" and be the equal of other heroes with supernatural abilities. The wizard knows many spells. The fighter knows only one spell, "kill with weapon". But he is the best at it. If he's not, that is a genuine problem, but in my 3E experience that happens only in games very low on magic items, where buff spells shine.

Now, if you make completely new classes that are not fighters and mix fighting and other abilities - like a gish or the Pathfinder magus, or even a "dirty fighter" with non-magical control abilities like what you outline in the quote - I have no problem with that. But that's not the DnD fighter. To a point, that IS the Pathfinder fighter - combat maneuvers are so upgraded in Pathfinder that they actually do some of the things the quote outlines.
 
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Starfox

Hero
I guess part of the problem is what attack vectors a DM prefers to use. In my experience, at least 50% of all attacks target armor class - the fighters's forte. Maybe 10% of those actually are touch attacks or incorporeal touch attacks, but about as many (actually some more) are against flat-footed AC. Of the remainder, about half target Fortitude, mainly in the form of poison. The remaining 25% are divided between Reflex and Will, with a slight bias towards Reflex. So, this is the typical attack spread I see:

30% AC - Figher's forte (Also the cleric's in 3E and 3.5)
5% Touch AC - Rogues shine
5% incorporeal touch - Wizards shine
10% Flat-footed AC - Rogues and fighters shine
25% Fortitude save - Fighters & clerics shine
15% Reflex save - Rogues shine
10% Will save - Wizards & cleric shine

Fighters shine against about 65% of attacks, clerics 35%, rogues 30%, and wizards 15%. Wizards also have lots of other ways to defend themselves other than AC and base saves, but they have less hp.

But this is all IMC. In your games, the opposition might look vastly different. And you can argue that attacks against Will are more devastating, but then again attacks against AC really are a lot more than 30% of all attacks, at low levels it is 75% or even 90%. again IMC.

A GM that thinks wizards outshine everything else may use a lot more wizards as opponent's, which ups the will save as a percentage of all attacks, making the perceived strength of wizards self-fulfilling.

About clerics, I think 3E clerics are deliberately overpowered to make anyone actually want to play them. There are so many tables where cleric equals heal-bot, and the class has a great amount of stigma associated with it from 1E and 2E as a boring suckfest. Part of that stems from many tables leveling all characters up at the same pace, where clerics and rogues at almost all levels were supposed to be 1-2 levels above fighters and magic-users at the same xp. This kind of overcompensation in a revision is common - that which sucks (or is perceived to suck) in edition x is made to shine in edition x+1. I feel this is what happened with the 4E fighter.
 
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N'raac

First Post
I may not have been born when you took that day off from work... was that before or after April 1987???

I didn’t take the day of – I took off after lunch an came back after picking up the book. And 2e was released in 1989 not that this makes me feel a lot younger – que sera!)

Okay... I would hope that the power of a feat that can be used whenever the character pleases would not equal that of a spell that can only be cast once before the character has to recharge.


I've played druids and fighters. Pretty sure the fighters were better in melee.

The fighter's viability as a character is substantiated by his reliability and durability, not his ability to achieve the same outcomes a powerful wizard can.

All of this comes back to the campaign style that sets spellcaster power – how often do we get to rest and recover spells? If we can buff up to the gills (only self-buffing, of course – it’s not about teamwork!), kick the door in, go nova with all our offensive spells, then back out and rest up (while the rest of the world sits in stasis) to do it again tomorrow, then the reliability of the fighters never really appears. If, on the other hand, we engage in multiple encounters in the day because there is time pressure from some source, then the spellcasters need to manage their resources, and the durability of the fighters comes to the forefront.

because I want to play a game the way I want to. The way I want is for classes to make sense, and fighters with encounters just don't make sense to me. If you get to sit at a table and make an Alchemist who has potions that only work for you, and bombs you can put togather 8 times today, and 8 times tomorrow, and 8 times the day after that without ever getting back to town to resupply why can't you make 9 today? You have the knowledge and supplies... and even worse you can shape them to blow up around other PCs... but your potions become non magic liquid in my hands... I want to play in a game that works like I want, and that means at my table all the PCs have to not have crazy options

Can we skip the book of nine and the codzilla argument and get back to gunslingers having grit that lets them expand powers by spending from a pool that comes back when you crit... and alchemists that can make 8 bombs today, 8 bombs tomorrow, 8 bombs the next day, all without any change to supplies or knowledge... but can't make 9 today... even though they have the time and money...

Let me ask a slightly different question. Eight bombs sounds like about 4th or 5th level. Let’s put our Cleric at 5th level as well. Why will the Cleric’s deity provide 2 third level spells each and every day, whether the Cleric uses them wisely or poorly? One casts Continual Flame twice a day to make streetlights for a city, the other is questing for his deity against his enemies. Yet the second can’t persuade his deity to send a Water Walk spell to save his faithful from drowning, while the first gets another two tomorrow to keep lighting the walkways for believers and non-believers alike.

Why can’t the Wizard, out of spells an hour after awakening and preparing them, take a cat nap to rest up and prepare spells again?

Why can’t Longstrider or Expeditious Retreat be cast on someone else, or made into a potion?

I see two reasons. One is game balance, but that has nothing to do with “abilities that make sense”. The other is “it’s magic”. Well, the alchemist is using magic. He infuses bombs with his magical reserves – which are limited just like the wizard or cleric’s magical reserves. His infusions work on him alone – just like many spells work on the caster alone. So what I don’t see is why is the Alchemist is perceived so differently when he’s restricted in a manner pretty similar to every other spellcaster?

Why can’t Bards perform all day? Why can’t Barbarians rage for hours? Should those abilities/classes be removed as well? There are tons of limited resources, and I think more get added in pretty much every edition. The Alchemist is far from unique in this regard, nor did these limits start in Pathfinder, although I’d say it increased in 3e (but that increase can be attributed to the proliferation of new class features, feats, etc. – I’m not sure the proportions have changed any).

Recharging uses, like the gunslingers, strike me as a smaller base number with a possibility to recharge them. A significant success provides renewed confidence and strength to the gunslinger? OK. The Monk has Ki points and the Magus has his points for augmenting his weapon. That, it seems to me, is a Pathfinder innovation. And it may not be your cup of tea (although it seems like a reasonable outgrowth of Sorcerers and their spontaneous spellcasting to me). If it has to be magical or mystical, then let’s assume the Gunslinger has a mystic link to his firearms and move on.

If limited uses of an ability per day is a game breaker, I don’t think that will leave many D&D classes intact. That's hardly a Pathfinder innovation.
 

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