Does piracy offer anything good? (aside from the bad)

[baphomet68]

Pirate and unrepentant

As a direct result of "a friend" DL'ing the core books (before release), my gaming group migrated to 4e. Noone was going to - we all had huge 3.5 book collections, and were happy with our game as it was. But, the "friend" showed off the new game, and put copies of those PDFs on each of those 7 other gamers USB key drives. ^ sets of the core books sold as a result.
In my group, there are only three of us who use the pc to game - the other 4 use paper exclusively. But everyone has a computer, and looked over the new rules. Made characters, played (the pirated) 1st half of an adventure.
Most people are too timid and fearful to DL pirated material - they are RPG players, not real Rogues in most cases . They do not steal books from RPG stores, so they do not steal PDF's online. It (Piracy) will never be anything that harms the industry - only popularize it.
It is silly to try to stop Piracy as well. Sad, outdated thinking, but not surprising behavior by WOTC.
The best thing it offers is freedom of content. This is a game based on imagination, and it is sad to think that a kid has to come up with 100 bucks to play this game. To me thats not that much, but in my city there are lots of children who live below the poverty line. I would rather have kids getting together playing pirated RPGs than pirated videogames or waytching pirated movies (suppose pirated books would be O.K. though)

PROPERTY IS THEFT

 

[baphomet68]

Out of Print Downloads

I bought hundreds of 1st, 2nd, and third edition books. I even scanned and OCRd a couple myself for personal use. When I saw so many books from my paper library in digital form, I of course DL'd them. I purchased copies of them and therefore I have every right to possess digital copies for personal use. Does this form of Piracy (Non current PDF's) do any good, beside provide me with digital copies of my paper library? Beyond the personal utilty i get, it is without effect. WOTC will never resell the OOP library, and the old edition players are able to get most of the OOP books on Ebay.

 

[nnms]

New study releaed by Industry Canada (a department of the federal government of Canada):

"Our review of existing econometric studies suggests that P2P file-sharing tends to decrease music purchasing. However, we find the opposite, namely that P2P file-sharing tends to increase rather than decrease music purchasing." (emphasis mine)

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/ippd-dppi.nsf/eng/ip01457.html

 

[rgard]

Actually, sales of out of print materials can create interest in reprints. Downlifted copies depress that interest.

A creator shouldn't have to worry about making money on a particular property at any given time. Think about the comic book industry. For most of its history old issues of most comics weren't generating income for the companies. They got their income from publishing and licensing, with the odd reprint to cover missed printer deadlines. Now trade paperbacks are a major part of the industry. TP's ability to prop up the industry wouldn't have been possible if widespread theft of the contents of back issues by bootleggers was an acceptable practice.

WOTC has reprinted material from earlier editions so they do make use of old IP. It may, at some point, start to reprint old products or sell pdfs of the products. Downlifting illegal pdfs of those products reduces the chance that those products will be legimately offered because every bootleg copy is a lost sale of a future legitimate copy of that item.

Personally, I have serious doubts that piracy makes the game more accessable. Someone with the income to buy a computer and pay for internet service can pay for a new book, they can read reviews of any new book, they can probably thumb through a new product at a book store or hobby shop. They can certainly plunk down a few bucks at a used book store for old TSR products.

As for the abilty to preview a product before buying it, I have serious doubts that every downlifter deletes stolen pdfs when they decide they aren't going to buy the book or pdf. It's like the episode of the Boondocks where Grandpa complains that movies are terrible, the food is overpriced, that tickets are too expensive, but it never occurs to him to just not go to movies.

Downlifters want to be exempt from supporting creative endovers. They just want to pay for the 10% of the really good stuff while still experience the other 90%. They want the rest of us to provide the support that makes any medium (video games, movies, books, music, tv shows) large enough and diverse enough to give creators enough space to create really great art.

XPs for you!

 

[rgard]

Correct that to "Some downlifters want to be exempt ..." and that statement would be correct. Without the "Some", it's just a blanket declaration, based on an assumption, of what every downloader intends. As far as I know, no living person (save maybe one) has ever posessed such omniscience.

The result is the same regardless of intent.

 

[El Mahdi]

There seems to be a big divide on this issue, and I honestly don't know if it will ever be resolved. On one side there's the belief that any form of piracy is wrong, period. For the most part, the law seems to agree with this. On the other, the belief is that piracy is something that does and will exist no matter what, like an aspect of nature, and may even be beneficial. For the most part, studies seem to agree with this. I really don't see the two sides of this debate reconciling anytime soon.


Anyways, something in rgard's sig got me thinking. It was the quote: "If I reject Jedi situational ethics, does that make me a Sith?"

For me, I would say the answer is No. But others may have a different philosophy.

The law is not an absolute thing. It's malleable and changes based on the mores of society. Nothing is exactly black and white, no matter how much we want them to be. It seems that we are addressing the age old question of "if something is not morally or ethicaly wrong, even if it's illegal, is it really wrong?". Or put another way; If no-one is hurt or caused damage by an action, even if that action is technically illegal, does it really matter or is it really wrong? I guess part of that answer would hinge upon whether piracy actually causes any harm. That question still seems unanswered despite compelling evidence and data on both sides of the issue.

I honestly can't tell where this will lead to in the future. Will the tide turn and the "war on piracy" eliminate piracy once and for all? Will the tide turn and the majority of people and companies decide that piracy is at worst a nuisance and possibly beneficial? Or will the current state of this issue simply remain the same for the foreseeable future? With neither side resolving anything? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[rgard]

There seems to be a big divide on this issue, and I honestly don't know if it will ever be resolved. On one side there's the belief that any form of piracy is wrong, period. For the most part, the law seems to agree with this. On the other, the belief is that piracy is something that does and will exist no matter what, like an aspect of nature, and may even be beneficial. For the most part, studies seem to agree with this. I really don't see the two sides of this debate reconciling anytime soon.


Anyways, something in rgard's sig got me thinking. It was the quote: "If I reject Jedi situational ethics, does that make me a Sith?"

For me, I would say the answer is No. But others may have a different philosophy.

The law is not an absolute thing. It's malleable and changes based on the mores of society. Nothing is exactly black and white, no matter how much we want them to be. It seems that we are addressing the age old question of "if something is not morally or ethicaly wrong, even if it's illegal, is it really wrong?". Or put another way; If no-one is hurt or caused damage by an action, even if that action is technically illegal, does it really matter or is it really wrong? I guess part of that answer would hinge upon whether piracy actually causes any harm. That question still seems unanswered despite compelling evidence and data on both sides of the issue.

I honestly can't tell where this will lead to in the future. Will the tide turn and the "war on piracy" eliminate piracy once and for all? Will the tide turn and the majority of people and companies decide that piracy is at worst a nuisance and possibly beneficial? Or will the current state of this issue simply remain the same for the foreseeable future? With neither side resolving anything? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Hi El Mahdi,

I think you sum this up pretty well.

My stress test for this to think about folks who have written RPG stuff and do actually sell in PDF format here via rpgnow. Ari wrote the Fiendblade (among many many other credits). I like his work, he posts here on enworld and seems to be a really decent sort of person. I can't imagine giving away copies of his work (soft or hard) to others.

I played the Fiendblade in one campaign and used it for the BBEG in one campaign I DM'd. My friend liked the class when he read the write-up and later watched me play the character. He purchased the pdf to use in his campaign for his BBEG.

That's how I think this whole process should work.

Maybe it's my upbringing. The golden rule must be hardwired in me. That said, I'm no saint.

Anyway Mr. El Mahdi, I liked your post. I'm in a DM mood so there are XPs on the way to you.

BTW...my Jedi quote is unattributed as I came up with it watching all six SW movies in a row...all legally purchased DVDs at that!

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Aberzanzorax]

It's interesting to consider all the laws people break all the time.

There's the insignificant ones, like jaywalking and underage drinking.


There's the significant ones that virtually everyone breaks: speeding.
(some studies have shown that speeding results in numerous deaths. DEATHS!) Yet, do we stop speeding or consider it immoral?


Then there are the really weird ones. I used to have a book of really weird laws as a kid. There's a law somewhere that it is illegal to give your donkey a bath in your bathtub. WHAT?
Here are some links I found to silly laws:
Weird American Laws
Dumb Laws, Stupid Laws: We have weird laws, strange laws, and just plain crazy laws!
Lawguru.com - Weird Dumb Strange Humorous Funny Laws Part I



Truth is, it's a combination of the factors of morality, ethics, harm, and law (along with social mores and acceptibility levels). Note that on top of these being additive, they are interactive, and possibly overlap as well.

There is no simple answer. Pirating isn't murder, and it isn't a woman wearing pants in Tuscon, Arizona, either (which IS illegal).


The law guides us, but so does common sense.

 

[frankthedm]

Without piracy, the movie Nosferatu would have ceased to exist.

 

[JoeGKushner]

And piracy tanked Wolverine. So many people saw it online, no one went to see it in the theaters. Truly this is a bullet proof case about the number of actual sales that piracy causes! Bulletproof!