Does Polymorph restrict size-changes?

[Iku Rex]

I think it's meant like this:

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature.

This part effectively removes the size restriction, because you can change the subject into another form of living creature, and living creatures differ in size (yes, it's ambiguous and highly vague), so the "except"-part also includes the removal of the Alter Self size restriction.

It does not follow. Bad logic.

Nothing about "you can change a willing subject into another form of living creature" prohibits restrictions on which form of living creature you can turn the subject into. (As made evident by the simple fact that even polymorph contains several such restrictions.)

Try making a general rule explaining what you're trying to tell me here. How about "any alter self rule involving something that differs from creature to creature doesn't apply to polymorph"? Can you stand behind that rule?

(And BTW, the "except" part doesn't really make sense, since alter self too allows you to change the subject [you] into another form of living creature. I suspect it's a copy-paste holdover from 3.0, where the spell opened with "polymorph other changes the subject into another form of creature".)

Then it goes on to place new restrictions (type and such). One of those is:

You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine.

It also limits the lower end of the size scale to Fine. The upper limit is not restricted.

You're not making sense.

Once again: "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine" is tautological nonsense.

Once again: Why would someone convey "the subject can be any size you want" by writing "the subject can't be smaller than Fine"?

 

[Thanee]

Just trying to explain.

The RotG article gives us the intent, so we know how it is supposed to work.

Going from there, I think, my above explanation could work.

I'm well aware, that it is not very explicit, but it's not my fault, that the spell is so badly written.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Plane Sailing]

Amazing what problems come from a basic laziness in referring to an earlier spell, rather than writing each spell as an atomic unit, complete unto itself.

Hopefully they will take note for a future edition

 

[Iku Rex]

The RotG article gives us the intent,

What makes you think that?

 

[Liquidsabre]

By the RAW, it appears that Polymorph only allows the caster to go up or down by 1 size.

No worries there spider, as has already been stated, by the RAW the polymorph spell changes the size restriction for the caster to fine+, with no upper limit to the size change beyond the HD-cap.

The Polymorph text referring to "no less than fine" obviously violates the Alter Self clause "one-degree of size change" when a medium-size creature polymoprhs into fine size. The logical result is that the Alter Self clause no longer stands since it is directly contradicted by the Polymorph text. This leaves us with the only size restriction being "no less than fine" along with the HD-cap, etc.

 

[Thanee]

What makes you think that?

Because it's linked on the WotC D&D site under the rules section, next to the errata and FAQ?

I understand these articles as clarifications meant for the printed rules.

(I'm aware, that they sometimes even contradict them in the FAQ. )

Bye
Thanee

 

[Iku Rex]

The Polymorph text referring to "no less than fine" obviously violates the Alter Self clause "one-degree of size change" when a medium-size creature polymoprhs into fine size. The logical result is that the Alter Self clause no longer stands since it is directly contradicted by the Polymorph text.

<sigh>

The alter self clause is, as I have explained repeatedly now, NOT directly contradicted by the polymorph text. Your logic is flawed.

 

[Iku Rex]

Because it's linked on the WotC D&D site under the rules section, next to the errata and FAQ?

I understand these articles as clarifications meant for the printed rules.

When you said the article gives us "the intent" I assumed you meant "the intent of the person who wrote the spell". There's no indication that Skip Williams was directly involved in making the 3.5 alter self/polymorph, or that he ran the article by someone who was (and who read it carefully).

 

[Nareau]

No worries there spider, as has already been stated, by the RAW the polymorph spell changes the size restriction for the caster to fine+, with no upper limit to the size change beyond the HD-cap.

The Polymorph text referring to "no less than fine" obviously violates the Alter Self clause "one-degree of size change" when a medium-size creature polymoprhs into fine size. The logical result is that the Alter Self clause no longer stands since it is directly contradicted by the Polymorph text. This leaves us with the only size restriction being "no less than fine" along with the HD-cap, etc.

I'm not convinced. The Polymorph text referring to "no less than fine" in no way violates the Alter Self clause. All this text does is prevent a fine subject from becoming any smaller than they already are--which is an absurd restriction, as there's no such thing as a "smaller than fine" creature in the first place.

By a strict interpretation, I think Polymorph restricts your size change to 1 step. But my intuition, comprehension, and sense of good-DMing tells me that the intention was to allow you to turn a svirfneblin into a hook-horror.

Thanks for all the input, though!

Spider

 

[Thanee]

A somewhat late reply...

It does not follow. Bad logic.

Why is that bad logic, just because you do not agree with it?

Nothing about "you can change a willing subject into another form of living creature" prohibits restrictions on which form of living creature you can turn the subject into. (As made evident by the simple fact that even polymorph contains several such restrictions.)

Well, that depends on how you read it. If you read "another" like "any other", for example, that could mean, any other, not only one that fits into the tight framework of restrictions presented under Alter Self.

I read it that way.

Try making a general rule explaining what you're trying to tell me here. How about "any alter self rule involving something that differs from creature to creature doesn't apply to polymorph"? Can you stand behind that rule?

Sure, that sounds about right. All restrictions set by Alter Self are off, because of that part. Only the explanatory parts of the lesser spell remain, which is quite a bit:

- You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself. - You retain your own ability scores. (Note: this part gets overruled by Polymorph) Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

- You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

- If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

- You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

- You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks (Note: this part gets overruled by Polymorph) or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

- You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. (Note: this part gets overruled by Polymorph, or rather re-stated) Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. (Note: this part gets overruled by Polymorph) You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

- You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

- When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.


That's what Polymorph inherits from Alter Self.

(And BTW, the "except" part doesn't really make sense, since alter self too allows you to change the subject [you] into another form of living creature.

Alter Self: You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level.

Polymorph: This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. ...

That part obviously has to mean something... it makes no sense, if it just allows you to assume the form of another creature, as that's what Alter Self does already, so it would not even be an exception, then. So, it has to mean something different...

And that could be, that it is meant to take away the restrictions of the form, mentioned under Alter Self ("The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level."), since it allows you to change into another (read: "any other") form of living creature.

However, since this would be a bit much, some new (but weaker) restrictions are then stated.

- The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.

- The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.

- You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form.

You're not making sense.

Not, if you don't even try to see it that way, no.

To me, I make perfect sense. My interpretation looks completely consistent to me.

Once again: Why would someone convey "the subject can be any size you want" by writing "the subject can't be smaller than Fine"?

Well, you cannot take on any size, just Fine to virtually unlimited, as long as there is a creature of that size within the type and HD restrictions of Polymorph available to change into... maybe they just wanted to be sure, that people don't try to turn into bacteria and stuff like that.

Bye
Thanee