Does rapid shot apply to crossbows?

[Caliban]

One more question. Since using rapid reload would allow up to two attacks/round, does that mean the same rule as rapid shot would apply in that both attacks use the highest BAB but with a -2 penalty on each?

Only if you are using Rapid Shot to get the extra attack. If the extra attack is from a higher BAB, then your first shot is at your full bonus and your second shot is at -5.

Rapid Reload by itself doesn't grant any extra attacks.

 

[uv23]

All things considered, this is seeming more and more like a useless feat. I'm going to have to cook up something that combines rapid shot and rapid reload, for crossbows only. Higher prereqs (13+ dex, potentially higher BAB or weapon focus) with the combined advantage of both RS and RR i.e. one extra attack per round at full attack bonus, with -2 on both attacks.

 

[hong]

The existing rules are quite reasonable vis-a-vis the crossbow's disadvantages. It takes a long time to load a crossbow, which limits its effectiveness compared to a regular bow. You can fire one bolt in the same time that a trained archer might have loosed three or four arrows. A unit of crossbowmen can't hope to achieve the same volume of fire that a unit of archers can.

The problem is that the existing rules aren't so reasonable vis-a-vis the longbow's disadvantages. It took years to train someone to be a good archer, and yet every two-bit warrior or fighter is proficient in their use. This imbalance means that characters who might otherwise have used a crossbow would be silly to do so. If you wanted to reflect reality better, making the (composite) longbow an exotic weapon might be a good start. But that would make a lot of fantasy archetypes difficult to represent, especially on a limited feat budget.

Instead of a feat that makes it easier to fire multiple crossbow shots, why not make a feat that plays to the advantages of the crossbow? I'm not an expert by any means, but these might include: 1) easier aiming, since it's a point-and-shoot weapon, unlike a bow; 2) higher damage; 3) less bulk. All this makes the crossbow an ideal weapon for assassins, snipers, and other such characters.

Here are some examples:


Crossbow Expert

Prereqs: BAB +6, Weapon Proficiency (crossbow), Weapon Focus (crossbow), Point-Blank Shot.

Benefit: when using a crossbow, your damage dice is upsized by one step, according to the rules in the MM (1d8, 1d10 -> 2d6). You can also apply double your Int bonus to negate attack penalties due to range. You do not gain an actual bonus to hit; if your doubled Int bonus is greater than the range penalty, the excess is discarded.


Crossbow Takedown

Prereqs: BAB +8, WP (crossbow), WF (crossbow), PBS, Crossbow Expert, sneak attack ability

Benefit: when using a crossbow, you can make sneak attacks out to your first range increment.

Normal: you can only make sneak attacks out to a range of 30 feet with a ranged weapon.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I generally agree with you Hong.

Making longbow exotic would make sense. It would create a reason why adventurers would use a short bow more often.

OTOH in a game system where throwing a dagger is a simple weapon why worry about such details?

I like the Crossbow Expert Feat BTW.

Another detail often forgotten is that crossbows are superior for firing accurately from cover if rate of fire is not a big deal. This was important for siege warfare. It it easier to use a crossbow while keeping your head down.

 

[uv23]

Interesting, thanks Hong. I'm not sure why intelligence would apply to the range increment bonus however. Perhaps wisdom, seeing as its more of a spotting/intuition type attribute. I'd be interested in seeing other ways of empowering the crossbow.

 

[hong]

(copied over from test.cyberstreet.com)

OTOH in a game system where throwing a dagger is a simple weapon why worry about such details?

Well, that's why I said, "IF you want to reflect reality better...". Personally, I couldn't give two hoots about reality.

Another detail often forgotten is that crossbows are superior for firing accurately from cover if rate of fire is not a big deal. This was important for siege warfare. It it easier to use a crossbow while keeping your head down.

Actually, this is already reflected in the rules somewhat: you can use a crossbow while prone, but not a regular bow.

 

[hong]

(copied over from test.cyberstreet.com also)

Interesting, thanks Hong. I'm not sure why intelligence would apply to the range increment bonus however. Perhaps wisdom, seeing as its more of a spotting/intuition type attribute.

I was thinking of the usual crossbow-wielder archetypes when coming up with that feat. An urban assassin/sniper type usually will be a multiclassed rogue/fighter character, with high stats in Dex and Int. Wis is something that religious and contemplative types tend to boost, and besides which is usually associated by players with common sense, inner calm, etc. Not the attributes one typically has in mind for an assassin.

Using different stats is also a way of giving each weapon its own flavour, rather than having them all be variations on "ranged attack 1dX damage".


For comparison, here's the equivalent feat for a bow wielder:


Instinctive Shot

You are one with your bow, enabling you to make difficult shots as if they were routine.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6, Point-Blank Shot, Weapon Focus with chosen bow.

Benefit: Choose a type of bow (long or short, composite or normal). When using a bow of that type, you can apply double your Wisdom bonus (if any) to negate attack penalties due to range. Note that you do not gain an actual bonus to hit; if the doubled Wisdom modifier is greater than the range penalty, the excess is discarded.

Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects do not stack; each time the feat is taken, it affects a different type of bow.