Does SR protect your Mirror Images?

[two]

Fireball is a good counter, or any area spell. As is Dispel Magic.

Read the spell.

Fireball does nothing. Granted, mirror image does not help vs. fireball, but fireball also doesn't dispel the images.

It helps if your caster has a reasonably decent reflex save.

Targeted dispel magic won't fly for obvious reasons.

Area dispel -- sure. Might work. If it does, recast Mirror Image. I'll trade 2nd level spells for your 3rd level ones (which are not assured of working in the first place) any day of the week. After all, the enemy mage is dispelling magic instead of, well, fireballing. I'm totally OK with that.

Been there done that.

What, are you going to constantly pit the party (starting at level 3 for wizards) against dispel-magic capable enemies with area-attack spells, necessarily at least 2 of them in the NPC enemy group?

It's a 2nd level spell. Yet it requires the GM to jump through many hoops to create an enemy that is capable of doing damage to the mirror imaged PC without wasting 2-3 rounds running around, attacking, dispelling 1-2 figments a round, etc. One 2nd level spell should not cause such ridiculous pain ( on the part of the GM).

 

[KarinsDad]

What, are you going to constantly pit the party (starting at level 3 for wizards) against dispel-magic capable enemies with area-attack spells, necessarily at least 2 of them in the NPC enemy group?

It's a 2nd level spell. Yet it requires the GM to jump through many hoops to create an enemy that is capable of doing damage to the mirror imaged PC without wasting 2-3 rounds running around, attacking, dispelling 1-2 figments a round, etc. One 2nd level spell should not cause such ridiculous pain ( on the part of the GM).

It doesn't cause pain for the DM (unless he doesn't play his smart NPCs properly).

It causes pain for the Wizard who casts it.

It is a neon sign that shouts "I AM A PROTECTED ARCANE SPELL CASTER, COME ATTACK ME FIRST" and that is exactly what a DM should do. With every gun in his NPC barrel.

 

[two]

Only at low level.

At higher level, the Fighter and the Archer full round attack the Wizard and hit virtually every time (due to the low AC of the images) and pop most of the images, or damage the Wizard.

For smart opponents, a Wizard is begging for a stomping if he casts Mirror Image because EVERY opponent should be going after him first instead of allowing him unopposed spell casting, even if that means throwing a dagger at him from a distance. Enemy spell casters should be targeting the Wizard with area affect spells.

As a DM, if your smart NPCs are avoiding the PC Wizard because he is casting Mirror Image, they are being played inferiorly and doing the exact opposite of what they are supposed to be doing. You always take out the biggest threat and a Mirror Imaged arcane spell caster is the biggest threat because he can only be counterspelled or area affected, he cannot effectively be readied against with normal targeted attacks to disrupt his spells or attacked as well straight up.



Your DM is taking it too easy on you. He should be stomping you as the most obvious threat in many battles.

I'm pretty sure you never have played with Mirror Image at low, mid or high levels. I have, a lot.

You should try it some time.

The higher you go, the more powerful actions are. If you cause your enemy to waste actions/attacks on illusions -- that's golden, it can't be beat. The critical that did 75 points of damage -- ooops, it hits an illusion. Mirror Image scales up wonderfully well.

Mirror Image maxes out at 8 images, which is pretty easy to get at mid/high levels. That's 9 total targets.

Let's do a typical 4 on 4. 4 PC's. 4 enemies. 10th level +-2 or so.
Round 1: PC Wizard casts Mirror Image, or had it buffed.
Enemy: durn, that guy has 8 images. He's the big danger. Let's all get him. (yeah right).
NPC1: Archer, hits 4 images (perhaps 3 images and wizard once). 15 damage. Ok ouch.
NPC2: fighter runs up to wizard and hits image. Dispels it.
NPC3: casts an area attack spell vs. wizard. (does some damage)
NPC4: throws 3 daggers and hits the wizard once, dispels 2 more images (ouch).

Great NPC team! You have used up all your actions and attacks, and have suceeded in possibly doing 40 or so damage to the wizard! Meanwhile, the rest of the PC's absolutely rip into you.

And what do we get in round 2?
WizPC: Casts Mirror Image defensively (no roll needed), moves back some allowing the enemy fighter to take an AOO (which hits an image).

Now the NPC's can spend all their time and actions dispelling the images and eventually doing some damage to the wizard - if they are lucky. Meanwhile, the other 3 PC's are busy doing whatever they want: healing the wizard while chopping up the enemy, etc.

Spending NPC time dispelling images is not, and I repeat not, a smart idea. In fact, I would be (and often was) absolutely thrilled if 2 high-powered enemy archers shot 10 arrows in a round and dispelled all the images, and hit my wizard 1ce or 2ce. It won't kill him. He can be healed and more importantly: he can re-cast mirror image. The enemy archers basically wasted 8 arrow shots which might have killed/disabled/etc. another PC in one round.

Carry one! Attack away! You can even do a quickened Mirror Image at level 6 and move and then cast an attack spell. What's not to like?

To repeat: concentrating on the Mirror Imaged PC is giving the rest of the party absolute carte blanche. You can't do enough damage to kill the Mirror Imaged PC in one round unless you are freakily lucky or have the NPC's running True Seeing. So you just do some damage and allow him to re-cast a 2nd level spell.

To put it this way: Is it better to concentrate all your firepower for one round (4 NPC's worth) to dispel figments and possibly do some moderate damage to an enemy wizard or... completely kill the enemy cleric? Or Fighter? Or Rogue?

Your call.

It's tough to kill a dedicated Mirror Imaged mage. Beleive me, I know. I have to try to do it every freakin' week.

 

[CM]

I was under the impression that, once you hit the mirror image caster, all the rest of your attacks for the round (and those of your allies) can target the caster normally, bypassing the images, until the images shuffle again on the caster's turn. While I still think mirror image is a great spell (and allow MM to pop images), that reigns it in a little.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm pretty sure you never have played with Mirror Image at low, mid or high levels. I have, a lot.

You should try it some time.

I have tried it. A lot. I think your assumption here is both lame and insulting.

The higher you go, the more powerful actions are. If you cause your enemy to waste actions/attacks on illusions -- that's golden, it can't be beat. The critical that did 75 points of damage -- ooops, it hits an illusion. Mirror Image scales up wonderfully well.

Mirror Image maxes out at 8 images, which is pretty easy to get at mid/high levels. That's 9 total targets.

Let's do a typical 4 on 4. 4 PC's. 4 enemies. 10th level +-2 or so.
Round 1: PC Wizard casts Mirror Image, or had it buffed.
Enemy: durn, that guy has 8 images. He's the big danger. Let's all get him. (yeah right).
NPC1: Archer, hits 4 images (perhaps 3 images and wizard once). 15 damage. Ok ouch.
NPC2: fighter runs up to wizard and hits image. Dispels it.
NPC3: casts an area attack spell vs. wizard. (does some damage)
NPC4: throws 3 daggers and hits the wizard once, dispels 2 more images (ouch).

Great NPC team! You have used up all your actions and attacks, and have suceeded in possibly doing 40 or so damage to the wizard! Meanwhile, the rest of the PC's absolutely rip into you.

A 10th level Wizard with a Con of 14 has an average of 47 hit points. Doing about 40 points of damage to him will seriously inconvenience him. Even with a Con boost item, he is seriously injured (over half damaged) or unconscious and will definitely be dead in round two unless he does something serious.

On the other hand, the PCs have slightly damaged some of the 4 NPCs. The NPCs have seriously damaged the PC Wizard. Combat almost never ends in a single round and often take 4+ rounds to resolve. That is plenty of time to snuff the Wizard.

In round two, the PC Wizard is either dying or fleeing or crying for the PC Cleric to heal him and the Cleric will have a hard time targeting the actual Wizard (Mirror Image works just as well against Cure and Heal spells as against any other targeted spell). You should minimally make it that the Wizard has to Ready an action to touch the Cleric as opposed to the other way around, otherwise, the Cleric has to choose from an image to touch the Wizard. This wastes time for both the Wizard and the Cleric.

And after round two, it could very well be 4 NPCs on 3 PCs.

Guess who will win the majority of the time in a 4 on 3 situation?

Thanks for proving my point for me.


Wizards cannot stand up to concentrated firepower and at 10th level, a single Fireball by the NPC Wizard and a single Flame Stike by the NPC Cleric can spell the end of PC Wizard in round one.

Also, the only thing that PC Wizard did in round one was cast Mirror Image unless the PCs surprised the NPCs.

So that means 4 NPC attacks versus 3 PC attacks in round one.


Your philosophy is totally incorrect unless you are in a situation where the enemies only have melee and ranged attacks and not many of them per round. But, if they have area affect spells and three or more ranged attacks per round, the Wizard is in trouble.

It's tough to kill a dedicated Mirror Imaged mage. Beleive me, I know. I have to try to do it every freakin' week.

It is hard for you because you are not approaching it correctly.

Do me a favor.

Run 3 combats with slightly inferior but intelligent foes with some area affect spells and several ranged attacks per round over the next few game sessions and the moment the PC Wizard casts Mirror Image, have the NPCs hit him with everything they got.

Remember to not allow the Cleric to easily heal the Wizard unless the Wizard either Delays or Readies an action to help.

And remember that once they find out who the Wizard is, he cannot merge back with his images until his movement on his next action, so anyone observing the first missile hit will know who to target.

I predict that after the three combats, the player of the PC Wizard will be whining that you are picking on him for some reason. That is, if he survives.

Mirror Image is a two edged sword. One the DM should take advantage of.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I was under the impression that, once you hit the mirror image caster, all the rest of your attacks for the round (and those of your allies) can target the caster normally, bypassing the images, until the images shuffle again on the caster's turn. While I still think mirror image is a great spell (and allow MM to pop images), that reigns it in a little.

That's how I've always read it. In order to confound onlookers again once they know which is the real caster, the caster must move through and split off from images.

While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded.

If the archer hits you, and you don't pop, everyone observing knows who the real caster is. If you, on your turn, elect to stay in your square and cast a spell, then you cannot merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded - something you can only do while moving - and everyone can continue to ignore the figments and concentrate on you.

If you do move, however, everyone is once agains confounded, and you gain the benefits of their confusion.

-Hyp.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I was under the impression that, once you hit the mirror image caster, all the rest of your attacks for the round (and those of your allies) can target the caster normally, bypassing the images, until the images shuffle again on the caster's turn. While I still think mirror image is a great spell (and allow MM to pop images), that reigns it in a little.

You are correct. It's easy to tell if the target is real since he doesn't dissapear. On his turn, he can shuffle through them while moving, so you're back to square one, possibly. But, it is far far from as overwhelming as two makes it out to be.

See the text:

While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confused.

EDIT: drat, hyp beat me to it!

 

[brehobit]

Two things:
#1 Won't deathwatch correctly ID an image vs. the real one?

#2 I tend to agree with the "mirror image is huge" crowd. We allow MM to target it and have often allowed area spells to take out the images. It is still a hugely powerful spell against non-casters. And even with those rules people still use it. A lot. Esp. around 15th level. Mirror image is one of the best spells to cast quickened.

#2b If the baddies are adjusting all of their stratagy to deal with mirror image (a 2nd level spell) even at high levels I think the spell might be too powerful.

 

[ThirdWizard]

#2b If the baddies are adjusting all of their stratagy to deal with mirror image (a 2nd level spell) even at high levels I think the spell might be too powerful.

It isn't really because of the mirrior image, its more about the fact that they can be pretty sure that he's about to start disintegrating and whatnot so its a good idea to keep him occupied.

 

[Jack Simth]

There's another way to break it - maybe - look at the line:

When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image.

They can't use vision to distinguish, and they can't use hearing; what about scent? Blindsense? Perhaps a few others? Anything with no sight still faces the blindness penalties - but something sighted with scent or blindsense as well could potentially ignore the illusions (they don't smell/sense right) and concentrate on the caster. Of course, the spell doesn't say you can use blindsense or scent to differentiate, it just lists two senses that won't differentiate.