Does the Monk class stink?

[Hejdun]

I should say that I have been playing a monk since level 1, and he is now 5th level. He has NEVER, EVER made a successful Stunning Fist.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the rule instead of the exception. I have played a monk from level 5 to 10, and never stunned anything despite using it at every possibility.

 

[DM_Matt]

The problem with Monks is that you can pften build Psichic Warriors that are better monks than actual monks are. If you can get more feats with resculpt mind and/or if the Diamond Warrior pres calss is allowed (both of these are from the Wotc website), your PsiWar will REALLY outmonk the monks.

 

[EarthsShadow]

I concur, with the right selection of feats the psywarrior is a much better warrior to have than a monk, especially those feats in the psi handbook that let them run up walls and stuff like that.

As far as stunning attacks go, I have only seen it successful three times, all in one day. When it works it is devestating, and one of the three successes came against a player monk by another monk npc. It was really funny.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Resculpt Mind is a confusing feat, but it does not apply to psychic warriors - ever! It specifically says "psion 3rd+" as a requirement, and it only gives bonus feats for psion levels (you can't trade psychic warrior or prestige class combat modes for feats).

Of course, psychic warriors are still plain better than monks, especially if they take the Diamond Warrior prestige class.

 

[Wormwood]

Unfortunately, this seems to be the rule instead of the exception. I have played a monk from level 5 to 10, and never stunned anything despite using it at every possibility.

That's strange. Our party Monk has a pretty good track record of getting those stuns off. Since he has Freeze the Lifeblood, h's pretty good at finishing off wizards quickly. Having a really high Wisdom makes Stunning Attacks much more effective.

That said, the monk remains one of the weaker party members. That's how it looks like from my side of the screen, at least. He's got the lowest AC in the party, and his hit points are fairly low.

Paper tiger.

 

[Bauglir]

Yes, and last time I checked, quite a few of the monsters in the MM have poor FORT saves, as well. If your DM isn't using them, that's a problem. Granted, the first two you encounter in the MM can't be stunned (an Allip and Animated Object). The Aranea has 5/5/4 for it's saves, which is hardly huge for a CR4 creature. An Arrowhawk has a 4/8/4 at CR3, a Belker has 3/10/2 at CR6, a Bugbear is 2/4/1, a Carrion Crawler is 3/3/5 at CR 4. A choker is 2/1/4, a Cloaker is 5/5/7. Dretchs and Quasits weakest saves are FORT at 3, at CR 2 and 3, respectively. How about the Destrachan? At CR 8, his Fort of 5 is pretty weak. At CR 7, the same goes for a Drider. The Dryad? A Fort of 0. How about the Ethereal Filcher? Fort of 1 at CR 3.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea. Play to your strengths. If the DM is not throwing creatures against a party with a monk that have low Fort saves, that's a fault of the DM. It's not that the MM doesn't offer a large number of creatures with poor Fort saves. Enemy NPC spellcasters are just more icing on the cake. Being attacked by hordes of weak creatures is another.

OK - I have a perception of monsters generally being strong vs the monk's stun. You counter that there are many monsters weak vs the stun. So to resolve this I will go through the Monster Manual, and pit the lvl 5 monk from above against each CR 5 monster in the MM, and determine an average chance to stun vs equal CR monsters:

Achaierai: 12.25%
Air Elemental, Large: 0%
Animated Object, Huge:0%
Arrowhalwk, Adult: 12%
Baleen whale: 2.75%
Barghest, Greater: 10.5%
Basilisk: 13.75%
Cloaker: 18%
Dire Lion: 13.75%
Earth Elemental, Large: 0%
Elasmosaurus: 17.5%
Ettin: 11.25%
Fire Elemental, Large: 0%
Genie, Djinni: 19.25%
Gibbering Mouther: 26%
Girallon: 19.25%
Green Hag: 10%
Hieracosphinx: 12%
Hydra, 6-heads: 12%
Manticore: 13.75%
Nightmare: 4.5%
Ochre Jelly: 0%
Orca Whale: 8.25%
Phase Spider: 21%
Rast: 27%
Ravid: 5%
Salamander, Average: 16%
Shadow Mastiff: 22.5%
Snake, Giant Constrictor: 18%
Spider Eater: 17.5%
Tojanda, Adult: 6.25%
Troll: 6.75%
Water Elemental, Large: 0%
Werebear: 7.5%
Weretiger: 10%
Winter Wolf: 18%
Wraith: 0%
Yuan-ti, halfblood: 30.25%
Yuan-ti, pureblood: 33%

Average chance of success: 13.35%

And that doesn't even take into account monster special abilities.
And typically encounters will be slightly above the party level, in order to challenge them.

In other words, the GM has to seriously contrive the situation in order to give the stun the 50% chance of success that is reasonable for a special ability like this..

 

[Storminator]

I think I have a pretty effective monk, and my Stunning Fist isn't particularly powerful.

But fortunately, I have Beyond Monks! There are a number of feats in there that allow you to trade in your stunning fist attempts for other powers.

Example:

Cobra Strike [Ki]
You are good at ending fights with snake-like strikes.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist or stunning attack ability, Wis 13+, Base attack bonus of +4 or higher.
Benefits: Whenever achieving a critical threat with an unarmed strike, you may choose to give up one of your stunning attacks for the day before confirming the critical. If your do so, your critical
multiplier for this attack is increased by 1. This ability can only be used once per round.

When I hit you for 3d20+2d6+36, you feel it.

My DM outlawed Choose Your Poison from Quint Monk. It allows you to choose whether your Stunning Fist has a Fort save or a Will save on the fly. Now that is an enormous power boost.

Don't stick with the PHB! That's all you have to do.

PS

 

[Gizzard]

In other words, the GM has to seriously contrive the situation in order to give the stun the 50% chance of success that is reasonable for a special ability like this..

Yes! Absolutely. The Monk is incredibly front loaded with abilities that are marginal. In my first 6 levels you get:

Unarmed Strike (Fair. Good flavor though.)
Flurry of Blows (Good)
Evasion (Good)
Exotic Weapons (Poor. Good flavor, bad play-balance. The +1 Short Sword goes to the Rogue.)
Stunning Attack (Poor. Generally ineffective.)
Deflect Arrows (Poor. Situational and ineffective.)
Still Mind (Horrible. +2 v. Enchantment School??)
Slow Fall 20ft (Poor. Situational and duplicated, I'm already taking Tumble.)
Purity of Body (Poor. Situational, depends on DM style.)
Slow Fall 30ft (Poor. Double duplicate. Whee, the Monk can fall farther than any other class.)
Improv Trip (Good)

Thats a lot of abilities compared to other classes, but who else gets so many medicore abilities? You get a bunch of good/fair abilites at 1st level and you wont get anything else good until 6th. Would I happily trade all of my 2nd-5th level abilities for one excellent ability like Sneak Attack? Yes, in a heartbeat.

Don't stick with the PHB! That's all you have to do.

I agree with that sentiment, but then its not clear what "Monk" means. How many supplements do I have to buy to make my "Monk" equally powered with the other characters? The Monk should be balanced (roughly) from the get-go, which he is currently not.

OTOH, I'm very hopeful about 3.5E - just moving the Ki Strike up to 4th level takes care of a lot of problems. It seems that the designers were aware of the shortcomings of the Monk and have made an effort to fix him up.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Exactly! The monk is a mystic something, not a martial artist. It has all these abilities that are rarely used.

The Martial Artist class from D20 Modern is much better, but it's more powerful, since it's designed for a system without magic.

PS what is Freeze the Lifeblood? What does it do?

 

[WizarDru]

OK - I have a perception of monsters generally being strong vs the monk's stun. You counter that there are many monsters weak vs the stun. So to resolve this I will go through the Monster Manual, and pit the lvl 5 monk from above against each CR 5 monster in the MM, and determine an average chance to stun vs equal CR monsters:

In other words, the GM has to seriously contrive the situation in order to give the stun the 50% chance of success that is reasonable for a special ability like this..

Well, your analysis doesn't tell us much, other than according to your calculations (which I assume include the to-hit chance is included in, given how low they skewed). I assume this since a monk with Wis 14 at 5th level has generates a 15 Fort save. By my math, that means a Greater Barghest, with a Fort save of 7, needs to roll an 8 or higher, which is a 40%, unless I'm confused. It also is only partly relevant, since you chose a single CR. The Greater Barghest or Djinni, for example, have Fort saves of 7, while a Destrachan or Drider, who are CR 8 and CR 7, both have WEAKER Fort saves. On top of which, with out knowing much about the monk in question, we can't be sure of his ability to hit in the first place, which is a separate issue, anyhow. (then you get into discussion of availability of magic items, and so forth).

All of which didn't mean that I said your perception was incorrect. In your campaign, it may be. I was addressing your contention that if you didn't use spellcasters, that the monk's ability wasn't as useful against just monsters from the DMG. Clearly, that's not the case.

I also disagree that a druid is needed to buff a monk...but they sure help. This is a game of interaction between characters, after all. Without the spellcasters to heal, buff and do a variety of other things, the party's fighters, rogues and other non-spellcasters would be hamstringed, as well.
As for