Does the Monk class stink?

[apsuman]

Let me say this about monks. I think since they are so special that the design team never thought out "how does thsi rule effect the monk?" when they made decisions.

For example on disarm attemps, the size difference in the weapons applies modifiers to the attempt. Well, monk's weapons are considered small byt the rules. (I was told that Sword and Fist corrected this).

Ki strike is good but really, at level 10 +1 just will not cut it.

The special ability at every level is great but inflexible. I do not have the OA handbook but what I have read is that the flexibility it offers is a boon.

However, I love the monk. I think they are great characters.

The class changes in 3.5 should be a great thing for them.


g!

 

[S'mon]

I like the Monk class, it helps that in my campaign some monk Orders can multiclass with eg Fighter or Sorcerer, depending the nature of the Order. They're great survivalists, but they don't support the rest of the party as well as most other classes.

 

[mooby]

****HOUSE RULE ALERT*****

To make it so that the monk weapons don't end up being useless after 4 levels, my dm has ruled that the monks unarmed damage can replace the damage listed of the monks weapons.

I mean, c'mon, is a fist gunna hurt more than the same guy whacking you with nunchaku?

 

[Bauglir]

Well I DO think the monk sucks.

The reason I think this is because their abilities focus largely on defense, and even in this area they have a flaw.

BAB - While a monk might not be a front line fighter they ARE supposed to be a fighting class, however, with the monk's dreadful BAB, any monks I've seen rain down miss after miss after miss.

Damage - Monks' damage output is pathetic compared to most other core classes. Sure, they punch for d20 at high levels, but a same level fighter will still far exceed this with their bonuses from various sources such as weapon specialization, and the various magical effects on their weapons...

AC - This is the monk's biggest defensive weakness. Their AC is NOT high enough to protect them from the attacks they may draw. A monk with both a dex AND wisdom of 18 will still have a lower AC than a same level fighter with full plate and a dex of 12. Also this creates a heavy dependance on items such as bracers of armor, or amulets of natural armor to try and keep their AC high enough to protect them from power attacks.

Ki strike - A monk gains the ability to pierce DR x/+1 at level 10, or use a monk weapon, all of which deal only d6 damage. Meanwhile other fighting classes are enjoying their full effectiveness with magic weapons from as low as level 3 or 4.

Special abilities - I have never seen a stunning fist attack actually stun anything. Firstly, it needs to actually LAND (see BAB), and secondly, the target has to make a not-that-difficult fortitude save. Color spray has a much better chance of working, AND it affects multiple targets.... A lot of the other abilities are equally underwhelming, and are typically weaker versions of other classes' abilities.

The inherent problem with playing a defensive fighter in a group - If I'm the monster, or enemy under attack from the PCs, will I

a) attack Mr Mobile, who's leaping about making himself difficult to hit, and not actually doing much to me (see damage)..

OR

b) ignore Mr Mobile, and go kill that wizard that just fireballed me.


This is all IMO (and IME) of course, and only considering the Core monk class (no PrCs)

YMMV

 

[Seaver]

I've been looking at Iron Kingdoms lately which led to me contemplating an Ogrun Monk.

Not necessarily playing one, but just the idea. They have a +4 str bonus IIRC and are large size so they would be at a base +6 over medium sized creatures in a grapple check.

Oh and that base move of 40' doesn't hurt combined with the monk speed bonus.

Basically it would be a speedy juggernaught that could roll opponents up into a fleshy ball then pound the stuffing out of them.

I liked the idea even more when I saw the IK versions of monks.

 

[S'mon]

In my lowish-magic game with Monk PCs played from level 4 to level 9 I found they were at least as powerful as other classes (there was no cleric PC). In a really low-magic game they tend to dominate the other non-spellcasting classes, due to their lack of reliance on magic items.
I've always found them a pleasure to DM for, as a class. It's the clerics & sorcerers who give me a headache, class-wise.

 

[Barendd Nobeard]

Another good monk trick--have the cleric cast Silence on a small rock, and have the monk tumble in next to the enemy spellcaster. Takes out the spellcaster's main advantage (spell casting), and if it's a wizard or sorcerer, they have the lowest hit die. Might not work as well on a cleric (d8 hit die + armor).

 

[Seaver]

Over all I don't think the monk is too bad.

The BAB, while not the best, is also not the worst. I mean bards, rogues, clerics, and druids can do alright in combat and they use the same table, only 5 less than a fighter, paladin or barbarian at level 20. No biggie.

Plus, the UAB provides even more attacks than those classes.

You can increase chances of hitting by picking up Weapon Finesse (Unarmed.) More than likely you are going to already have a decent Dex since you can't wear armor so this makes the stat extra useful.

A monk's damage isn't stellar to start out with granted, but it's also not god awful. Average at first, at the higher levels, though... The only problem with this is overcoming DR.

This is addressed in part by Ki Strike allowing the monk to use their unarmed damage or they can use an enchanted monk weapon assuming they don't want to sacrifice their attack rate.
The problem here as mentioned previously is that they sacrifice damage to do this.

The other option in this case would be to use gloves or leather straps that were enchanted with weapons enhancements. In fact I do believe that I've seen those in one of the WotC books. Flaming fists anyone? Use your UAB, increased attack bonus from Weapon Finesse and a decent dex, and still get to use your unarmed damage. Oh yeah and whatever bonuses are on those gloves.

Now many would think since they don't get to wear armor Monks are bad off in this department. More than likely they are going to be somewhere around the level of a barbarian, ranger, or rogue as far as AC. For example say any of the previous three classes were wearing enchanted +5 chain shirts to stay within the light category. At best they are going to have a bonus of +13 from armor and dex (4 + 4 + 5).

A monk could throw on some bracers of armor +8 and assuming a wis of 14 and dex of 18 (not unreasonable I think) then they would have a total of +14 to AC (8 + 2 + 4).

A fighter, paladin, or cleric could easily beat them on AC but then again they are wearing plate and possibly large shields.

Again they aren't the absolute best, but better than a majority of the other classes. And that isn't even an extreme example using dex and wis enhancing items.

Speaking of dex and wis enhancing items this is where the monk definately beats out any class. What else does wisdom affect? The Will save, a very large hole in the defenses of the majority of classes. The enchantment school of spells can be worse than a fireball anyday, fireballs just damage or kill you.

Now speaking of fireballs a higher Dexterity also affects your Reflex save. Traps or area spells that might heavily damage a party may leave a monk completely unscathed.

While thinking of saves, combine the higher dex and wis bonuses of a monk with their fantastic saving throw bonus progression and you've got a winning combo.

Now if you want to do some minor munchkinizing, play a LG monk, and assuming your DM allows free multiclassing for monks and paladins toss in a level of paladin to get that charisma bonus to saves as well (or just start with a level 1 paladin then switch to Monk from there out and thumb your nose at the DM). These guys can be fun and easy to roleplay too. Honorable and holy monks fighting the good fight. Zen and the Art of Quelling Evil.

Add on top of all the other special abilities that a monk gets and frankly that's all just some nice icing on the cake.

Never really thought it all out before...now I'm wondering why I've never played a monk.

 

[Mort]

Now if you want to do some minor munchkinizing, play a LG monk, and assuming your DM allows free multiclassing for monks and paladins toss in a level of paladin to get that charisma bonus to saves as well (or just start with a level 1 paladin then switch to Monk from there out and thumb your nose at the DM). These guys can be fun and easy to roleplay too. Honorable and holy monks fighting the good fight. Zen and the Art of Quelling Evil.

Add on top of all the other special abilities that a monk gets and frankly that's all just some nice icing on the cake.

Never really thought it all out before...now I'm wondering why I've never played a monk.

The problem with a paladin/monk multiclass is that while it’s great in theory good luck getting good enough stats. Unless you get extraordinarily lucky rolling or have a very high point buy – you will be spreading yourself way too thin.

Monks need a good Dex and WIS, a good strength helps a lot and a good Con is great if you can do it. That leaves Int and Cha. For the paladin abilities to be of any use, you need a good charisma . That’s just too many necessarily good stats.

I think there was a “power play” in Dragon a while back that had this combo – said something like – “hey, if you have an 18 in DEX, WIS and CHA – look what you can do!” Well if I had three 18’s to play around with, I could do an awful lot regardless of the class.

 

[Seaver]

......Well if I had three 18’s to play around with, I could do an awful lot regardless of the class.

True enough.