Does the Monk class stink?

[Guilt Puppy]

Well I DO think the monk sucks.

The reason I think this is because their abilities focus largely on defense, and even in this area they have a flaw.

BAB - While a monk might not be a front line fighter they ARE supposed to be a fighting class, however, with the monk's dreadful BAB, any monks I've seen rain down miss after miss after miss.

IME this starts to happen around 8th level -- by which point the monk's other abilities (including skills) are good enough that they should have other tactics in combat. They will need some good magic items by this point to keep their AB up (Gloves of Dex are superb for a Monk with Weapon Finesse), and at higher levels can be better off switching to magical weapons -- so you might want to Finesse the Kama rather than the Unarmed Strike.

Damage - Monks' damage output is pathetic compared to most other core classes. Sure, they punch for d20 at high levels, but a same level fighter will still far exceed this with their bonuses from various sources such as weapon specialization, and the various magical effects on their weapons...

This is ultimately true -- their weapon is not going to be their most-invested magic item generally, and Strength usually takes third or fourth banana to their other important stats.

Again, this doesn't become a significant disparity until higher levels... The damage difference is really first substantial around sixth level, IME, but doesn't fall under the "totally useless" category until after level 10 (when investment in magic items become a bigger factor, disparity in feats and such starts to show more, et cetera.)

Coincidentally, it's around this time that arcane casters replace tanks as the biggest threat to a party's survival -- and it doesn't take a lot of damage to take out an arcane caster, you just have to be able to get to them... Monks can do this like no other, in many different ways. While the monk is bashing the Wizard's brains out, the Fighter is still toe-to-toeing it with the annoying Iron Golem.

AC - This is the monk's biggest defensive weakness. Their AC is NOT high enough to protect them from the attacks they may draw. A monk with both a dex AND wisdom of 18 will still have a lower AC than a same level fighter with full plate and a dex of 12. Also this creates a heavy dependance on items such as bracers of armor, or amulets of natural armor to try and keep their AC high enough to protect them from power attacks.

Also one less than a fighter with an 18 Dex and full plate... Or an 18 Dex and a Chain Shirt (although shields do help them out)... Just to point that out. However, monks get the benefit of no AC penalty, pretty much ever (what monk needs enough gear that they ever get encumbered?), and the price of magical enhancements compares pretty readily with those other characters would get (Bracers of Armor cost as much as Enhancement bonuses, all characters end up getting stat-boosters somewhere, and for the monk those will be their multi-purpose AC stats, et cetera)... IME their AC usually does keep up with the rest of the party (usually it's second only to the tank, and sometimes it's better), even as levels progress. Plus, their touch AC stays consistently high as well -- Harm, anyone?

Ki strike - A monk gains the ability to pierce DR x/+1 at level 10, or use a monk weapon, all of which deal only d6 damage. Meanwhile other fighting classes are enjoying their full effectiveness with magic weapons from as low as level 3 or 4.

This is probably their most legitimate "weakness" (of course, weakness all depends on what you're comparing it to... I'm assuming you're trying to compare them to some notion of a useful support fighter, although in most cases you are comparing them to tanks...)

Against opponents with upper-end DR (that is to say, the highest DR you should be expected to beat at a given level), then yes, monks do falter.

Special abilities - I have never seen a stunning fist attack actually stun anything. Firstly, it needs to actually LAND (see BAB), and secondly, the target has to make a not-that-difficult fortitude save. Color spray has a much better chance of working, AND it affects multiple targets.... A lot of the other abilities are equally underwhelming, and are typically weaker versions of other classes' abilities.

Okay: The save DC for stunning fist is about as high as the save DC for the highest-level spell a Sorceror can cast (probably a little lower, accounting for higher Cha than Wis, and options like Spell Focus.) While it does require an attack to hit, again, monks aren't as bad at hitting IME as you make them out to be (considering they can move to flank easily, et cetera...)

However, two big problems with your Color Spray analogy: Stunning Fist is once per level per day. That's a lot of attempts. You can pretty much throw those around at higher level, when you're facing characters you expect to be less able to resist (ie the Wizard, not the big tank that you should never be fighting in the first place). You know how nice a stunned Wizard is at higher-levels? It's a blessing -- two less disintegrates!

Second problem: Monks are not Wizards. While doing that sort of stuff is the Wizards schtick, monks have a whole ton of other abilities.

A very similar argument could be made regarding any of the monks special abilities (as they're generally similar to arcane abilities) -- Wizards are better at that sort of stuff, but at the sacrifice of hit points, attacks, saves, and all the other things you listed above.

Any one thing a monk does, there's probably another class or character type that can do better. That's because they're a class about versatility... The same can and has been said about the Bard (which IMO is an even more severe example of this.) The monks only really fall behind, as a whole, if their abilities start becoming useless instead of not as good -- and I just haven't seen this happen, so long as a monk doesn't try to act like a Fighter, or like Wizard for that matter.

The inherent problem with playing a defensive fighter in a group - If I'm the monster, or enemy under attack from the PCs, will I

a) attack Mr Mobile, who's leaping about making himself difficult to hit, and not actually doing much to me (see damage)..

OR

b) ignore Mr Mobile, and go kill that wizard that just fireballed me.

How is not getting attacked a problem?

Really, you've hit upon yet another example of the monk's true strong point: Survivability. They have awesome saves, pretty good hit points (compared to all classes, not just fighter-types), pretty good AC, plus a dab of SR here, some Still Mind there, et cetera... Plus it's damn near impossible to create a situation which neuters monks -- their abilities are applicable to IMO the widest variety of circumstances in the game.

Monks appeal to a certain kind of player -- the one who doesn't mind giving up some time in the spotlight if it means they always get to be on stage somewhere. Bard's another flavor to this, as is Ranger to a certain degree... But I think it's pretty clear to anyone, monks are just way cooler

 

[Storminator]

I gave my monk Bracers of Striking from FR, and I haven't had a problem with DR. I still won't do as much damage as the Weapon Master (but his damage is insane!), but I've been known to get to the fight two rounds before him.

And defense? I've got an AC ~40, with a touch AC ~35. Add in the saves from hell and evasion, and I don't get touched. After an encounter with a drow wizard I forced the fighter to get Pro vs Elements cast on him every time out. He died to a series of lightning bolts. He took 120 points of damage, and I took zero. Guess which one of us killed the wizard?

Monks can be extremely effective.

PS

 

[Gizzard]

The Monk as-is stinks. I say this and I'll spell out my assumptions:

1) You are not playing with lots of extra feats from other books - you are a Monk as described in the PHB. If you are playing with lots of other feats, well, your not exactly a "Monk" anymore. Thats fine, and thats probably fun. But a PHB Monk as written is poopy. See the 3.5 revision if you doubt.

2) You are not starting at level 16. High level Monks are supposedly kinda cool. They have certain things they are very good at, things that are important to the party like running fast and grappling spellcasters. If you start at level 1, you are not cool. You cannot fight like a Fighter and you dont have the flexibility of a Rogue or even (sadly) a Bard. Around level 6 you start to pull even with the other classes, but thats a lot of play where you generally suck.

3) You are a standard humanoid race. You are not a Beholder or a half Black-Dragon. Self explanatory. ;-)

4) You find most of your treasure, you dont get to buy Boots of Striding and Springing from the corner Magic Shop. Monks are very dependent on certain magic items to make them competetive. This is doable in some styles of campaign, but its a huge restriction in a low-magic world.

5) You are not way above average in stats. If your DM will let you be all 18s (or all 20's!) then you will find that a Monk is powerful. Frankly though, an Aristocrat is powerful with these sorts of stats. The higher the point-buy or the higher the rolls, the better your Monk is. You need to get a decent STR (for damage), CON (for HPs) and INT (for the skills) and a good DEX and WIS for class abilities.

The monk I plan on playing will probably be a halfling, with a scouty/sneaky-type concept in mind. I'm considering taking a level of Rogue for the character as well.

This is the best plan IMHO for Monks - to be a tougher but less flexible Rogue. If you are going to be underground though, Darkvision is a must. Otherwise you can't sneak very well. Again this depends on your campaign, but its something to think about. As a Human Monk I almost never get to use my sneaking skills due to the torchlight problem.

 

[Lord Rasputin]

Okay: The save DC for stunning fist is about as high as the save DC for the highest-level spell a Sorceror can cast (probably a little lower, accounting for higher Cha than Wis, and options like Spell Focus.) While it does require an attack to hit, again, monks aren't as bad at hitting IME as you make them out to be (considering they can move to flank easily, et cetera...)

However, two big problems with your Color Spray analogy: Stunning Fist is once per level per day. That's a lot of attempts. You can pretty much throw those around at higher level, when you're facing characters you expect to be less able to resist (ie the Wizard, not the big tank that you should never be fighting in the first place). You know how nice a stunned Wizard is at higher-levels? It's a blessing -- two less disintegrates!

Second problem: Monks are not Wizards. While doing that sort of stuff is the Wizards schtick, monks have a whole ton of other abilities.

A very similar argument could be made regarding any of the monks special abilities (as they're generally similar to arcane abilities) -- Wizards are better at that sort of stuff, but at the sacrifice of hit points, attacks, saves, and all the other things you listed above.

I should say that I have been playing a monk since level 1, and he is now 5th level. He has NEVER, EVER made a successful Stunning Fist. It's a DC 15 Fort save (5th level, 16 Wis). A wuss monster: why bother if you'd kill him anyways? A tough monster: a DC 15 Fort save is a cinch. And that's *if* I hit. It's not like I don't try, either, since for a tough foe, using one of these attempts is no real penalty.

Having an ability that never works is kinda silly. I wonder if the DC shouldn't be something like the monk's successful attack roll.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I should say that I have been playing a monk since level 1, and he is now 5th level. He has NEVER, EVER made a successful Stunning Fist. It's a DC 15 Fort save (5th level, 16 Wis). A wuss monster: why bother if you'd kill him anyways? A tough monster: a DC 15 Fort save is a cinch. And that's *if* I hit. It's not like I don't try, either, since for a tough foe, using one of these attempts is no real penalty.

Having an ability that never works is kinda silly. I wonder if the DC shouldn't be something like the monk's successful attack roll.

Again, why are you bothering to attempt to use it on creatures with good Fort saves? Or 'creatures that look tough' to avoid metagaming terms? Get in, find the spellcasters, and use it on them! Wizards and Sorcerors have terrible fort saves, so take advantage!

When I played a monk, I used it every round. Sooner or later your luck comes in. Plus there is an item that you can buy to improve it, from Sword and Fist.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

The Monk as-is stinks. I say this and I'll spell out my assumptions:

OK, but you're not going to like my defense of the monk, that much is obvious.

1) You are not playing with lots of extra feats from other books - you are a Monk as described in the PHB. If you are playing with lots of other feats, well, your not exactly a "Monk" anymore. Thats fine, and thats probably fun. But a PHB Monk as written is poopy. See the 3.5 revision if you doubt.

OK, does this apply to everyone else too? No greater spell focus, no greater spell penetration, no extra rage, no greater two weapon fighting, no expert tactician...etc etc etc. No fun prestige classes either, just those from the DMG. Balances things out a little, doesn't it?

2) You are not starting at level 16. High level Monks are supposedly kinda cool. They have certain things they are very good at, things that are important to the party like running fast and grappling spellcasters. If you start at level 1, you are not cool. You cannot fight like a Fighter and you dont have the flexibility of a Rogue or even (sadly) a Bard. Around level 6 you start to pull even with the other classes, but thats a lot of play where you generally suck.

Yes, but then at level one everybody sucks. Monks at first level may be a little weak, but they likely have the best saves across the board, plus evasion (which rogues don't get until 2nd!)

3) You are a standard humanoid race. You are not a Beholder or a half Black-Dragon. Self explanatory. ;-)

What? Neither is anybody else. That is completely irrelevant to how good the monk class is. I'll take the with that, though, and move on...

4) You find most of your treasure, you dont get to buy Boots of Striding and Springing from the corner Magic Shop. Monks are very dependent on certain magic items to make them competetive. This is doable in some styles of campaign, but its a huge restriction in a low-magic world.

OK, in a low magic world. But then, in a low magic world, you're not facing creatures with high DR, unless the DM is really mean. Also, you can pay your friends to create you items, especially cheap items like Boots of Striding and Springing, which I believe are 6000gp after errata.

5) You are not way above average in stats. If your DM will let you be all 18s (or all 20's!) then you will find that a Monk is powerful. Frankly though, an Aristocrat is powerful with these sorts of stats. The higher the point-buy or the higher the rolls, the better your Monk is. You need to get a decent STR (for damage), CON (for HPs) and INT (for the skills) and a good DEX and WIS for class abilities.

If your DM will let you take all 18's then let him see the consequences. Although the monk makes the best use of high stats, he doesn't need them. All characters look better from a combat point of view with higher numbers. Doesn't make them any more interesting, or useful. But I do agree that a high stat monk is very effective.

This is the best plan IMHO for Monks - to be a tougher but less flexible Rogue. If you are going to be underground though, Darkvision is a must. Otherwise you can't sneak very well. Again this depends on your campaign, but its something to think about. As a Human Monk I almost never get to use my sneaking skills due to the torchlight problem. [/B]

Well, I played my monk like a kung fu fighter! My DM was kind enough not to set us impossible problems with vision, and so the halfling rogue did the scouting for us. And if it hadn't been for an unlucky critical on a dissolving touch, he would still be alive.

I still say the Monk is an exciting and fun class, perfectly playable, and just as good as anyone else.

*Tallarn waits for the angry response, but hopes he doesn't get one*

Edited twice for dumb formatting.

 

[barsoomcore]

Monk + Rogue + Unbalancing Strike + Expert Tactician

It's a whole world of pain. And that's just the FIRST attack that round...

 

[Gizzard]

*Tallarn waits for the angry response, but hopes he doesn't get one*

Oh no, no angry response. I mean this thread has come and gone 100 times before and hopefully I never was angry about it. Hopefully everyones experience is valid, and these days I just like to point out that people play different styles and those different styles have a big effect on how good your Monk is going to be. So:

OK, does this apply to everyone else too? No greater spell focus, no greater spell penetration, no extra rage, no greater two weapon fighting, no expert tactician...etc etc etc. No fun prestige classes either, just those from the DMG. Balances things out a little, doesn't it?

Yes, it applies to everyone. No extra prestige classes, no Ki Straps, no splatbook feats or magic items. The Barbarian doesnt need Extra Rage to deal out tons of damage, the Wizard doesnt need Greater Spell Penetration - these classes are inherently reasonable on the power-scale. At low levels (level 6 and below) the Monk is the hands-down favorite for "weakest class" because he cant quite fight and his skills arent generally useful enough for the rest of the party to notice. He doesnt have much of a role.

Thats why threads like "Why are Monks useless?" get started.

But then, in a low magic world, you're not facing creatures with high DR, unless the DM is really mean. Also, you can pay your friends to create you items, especially cheap items like Boots of Striding and Springing, which I believe are 6000gp after errata.

Well, even DR5 is "high DR" to a Monk, who is doing d8+STR with his unarmed attacks. I've faced my share of DR5 monsters by level 6, running through the standard WotC module series. DR5 is a bit of a shock to all low level characters, but the Monk might as well just give up on ever doing damage in combat, while the Barbarian and TWF Fighter are much more likely to have a +1 weapon or at least a Bastard Sword (d10+STR+2).

Now, by "low-magic world" I only mean that theres no Olde Corner Magic Shoppe which just happens to have everything in the DMG in stock. You either find items, you trade items, or you find someone to have items commissioned. As for my friends making Boots for 6000gp for me, the Sorcerer hasnt taken Craft Wonderous yet. And if he did, he'd be Crafting Wonderous for himself first. And, after that, I think he'd be tempted to give the Barbarian or TWF Fighter the Boots anyway. "Yeah, sure, but if I make them for the Barbarian, he moves 80' and does a lot of damage when he hits. Not like you, Monk."

My DM was kind enough not to set us impossible problems with vision, and so the halfling rogue did the scouting for us.

Well, I'm not sure what an "impossible problem" might be with respect to vision - but if you are doing a dungeon crawl and can see without your light then you esentially have Darkvision. Monks are actually a bit better out of the dungeon, where their fast movement and ability to fight without weapons are premium abilities. Again, this is a matter of campaign style. But its something to be aware of - if you are dungeon crawling and planning on being a scout make sure to be a Half-Orc or otherwise have Darkvision.

I think scout is a great role for a Monk, its just that the character races don't line up very well with the class.

 

[Witness]

I have been playing a Monk character for about a year-and-a-half. He is just getting into the mid levels (we level very slowly and switch between campaigns) and my experience has been that the Monk class is well balanced and useful in almost any situation. Situations from my personal experience where I have seen the Monk shine are:

Many weak foes with average or low AC-the Monk's multiple attacks are going to hit these types of foes more often and his mobility allows him to avoid beeing surrounded.

Stealth- Not as useful as a Rogue in a dungeon crawl, but in a wilderness setting or any place one is not likely to encounter traps, the Monk is equal to a Rogue or Ranger in stealth or scouting. Though those other classes have skills like Spot to help them be better scouts, the Monk's speed is a great asset that I have found puts him back on an equal footing.

Mobility- Not quite sure if this is by the book, but we have always played it that the Monk's improved speed affects not just running/walking, but also climbing and swimming. So, for instance, when climbing a cliff, or a tree, or a castle wall, the Monk will get to the top faster and have to make fewer climb checks.

the most signifigant drawback in my experience is that too many people (myself included) try and play the Monk as a Fighter. The Monk doesn't have the AC or the BAB to go toe-to-toe with the BBEG (unless the BBEG is a wizard). Another drawback that may make the Monk less attractive to many is that he has limited versatility; all his special powers are predetermined. This is not a problem exclussive to the Monk class, it only is more obvious with the Monk because he receives another special power every level.

I find it terribly ironic that so many people think the Monk class is underpowered. In another game I play in, the Monk class was outlawed because the DM thought it was overpowered (that ruling was overruled eventually).

 

[Bauglir]

IME this starts to happen around 8th level -- by which point the monk's other abilities (including skills) are good enough that they should have other tactics in combat. They will need some good magic items by this point to keep their AB up (Gloves of Dex are superb for a Monk with Weapon Finesse), and at higher levels can be better off switching to magical weapons -- so you might want to Finesse the Kama rather than the Unarmed Strike.

I've seen it happen as early as third level. The slow BAB is only made worse by the necessity to spread stats so thinly as a monk.

Coincidentally, it's around this time that arcane casters replace tanks as the biggest threat to a party's survival -- and it doesn't take a lot of damage to take out an arcane caster, you just have to be able to get to them... Monks can do this like no other, in many different ways. While the monk is bashing the Wizard's brains out, the Fighter is still toe-to-toeing it with the annoying Iron Golem.

if the wizard has boosted his AC, the monk won't be bashing anything, thanks to that awful attack bonus .

Besides, not all enemies are parties of humanoids. More often IME we encounter monsters. And monsters that can't handle themselves in melee are rare.

Also one less than a fighter with an 18 Dex and full plate... Or an 18 Dex and a Chain Shirt (although shields do help them out)... Just to point that out.

Even in this case the monk is STILL worse off - with 2 18's he can't match what the fighter can do with 1.

However, monks get the benefit of no AC penalty, pretty much ever (what monk needs enough gear that they ever get encumbered?), and the price of magical enhancements compares pretty readily with those other characters would get (Bracers of Armor cost as much as Enhancement bonuses, all characters end up getting stat-boosters somewhere, and for the monk those will be their multi-purpose AC stats, et cetera)... IME their AC usually does keep up with the rest of the party (usually it's second only to the tank, and sometimes it's better), even as levels progress. Plus, their touch AC stays consistently high as well -- Harm, anyone?

Lets give the monk 16 dex, 16 wis, - that means their AC will be 16 + magic. Now lets look at the typical platemailed offensive tank style fighter. AC 19 + magic, and under a point buy system, lots of points left over to spend elsewhere, compared to our monk. The monk will be pouring vast amounts of resources into every kind of AC they can get to keep alive, while the fighter will be getting a wealth of items that boost both their defensive and their offensive potential. While the fighter is enhancing their strengths, the monk is always trying to buy off their weakness.

I'm assuming you're trying to compare them to some notion of a useful support fighter, although in most cases you are comparing them to tanks...)

Well what IS a support fighter? - specifically what do they do that a monk will be better suited to than another tank?

Okay: The save DC for stunning fist is about as high as the save DC for the highest-level spell a Sorceror can cast (probably a little lower, accounting for higher Cha than Wis, and options like Spell Focus.) While it does require an attack to hit, again, monks aren't as bad at hitting IME as you make them out to be (considering they can move to flank easily, et cetera...)

Vs an Achaierai (CR 5) AC 20
Fig 5 - 16 str, WF, WS +1 gsword - +10 (55%) to hit, avg dam 8.4
Mnk 5 - 16 dex, wis, 14 str Wfin - +6 (35%) to hit, avg dam 2.6
Flurry - +4/+4 (25%) avg dam 3.25

Stunning fist save DC will be 10+2+3 = 15
Achaierai has Fort +7 - 35% chance of failing

So altogether the stunning fist has a 12.25% success rate vs this monster of even CR. Now there are SOME monsters that the monk is better suited to handle, but these are not common.

As for moving to flank, that's not too difficult for any fighting class. Rogues tumble into position, fighters rumble about with mobility-boosted AC. I don't see the monk as having any kind of enhanced access to flanking.

However, two big problems with your Color Spray analogy: Stunning Fist is once per level per day. That's a lot of attempts. You can pretty much throw those around at higher level, when you're facing characters you expect to be less able to resist (ie the Wizard, not the big tank that you should never be fighting in the first place). You know how nice a stunned Wizard is at higher-levels? It's a blessing -- two less disintegrates!

The monk would have an even harder time affecting a high level wizard worth his salt, who has access to spells like improved invisibility, dimension door, fly, displacement (and of course all the AC buffs).

Second problem: Monks are not Wizards. While doing that sort of stuff is the Wizards schtick, monks have a whole ton of other abilities.

Agreed, but then so do wizards...

A very similar argument could be made regarding any of the monks special abilities (as they're generally similar to arcane abilities) -- Wizards are better at that sort of stuff, but at the sacrifice of hit points, attacks, saves, and all the other things you listed above.

My point is - whatever a monk does, another class always does it much better, so a lot of the monk's versitility is wasted in a party where the other members are better suited to the various tasks the monk may be (barely) capable of.

How is not getting attacked a problem?

Read below

Really, you've hit upon yet another example of the monk's true strong point: Survivability. They have awesome saves, pretty good hit points (compared to all classes, not just fighter-types), pretty good AC, plus a dab of SR here, some Still Mind there, et cetera... Plus it's damn near impossible to create a situation which neuters monks -- their abilities are applicable to IMO the widest variety of circumstances in the game.

Agreed, but of what worth is it to the rest of the party? The monk can survive, but if he can't protect the rest of his party what use is that? Tanks can effectively protect spellcasters because enemies will respect the tanks' capability to hurt them, and would think twice about ignoring them to go after the casters. Not so the monk. Similarly, casters can protect the tanks with buffs, defensive spells, and heals.

Monks appeal to a certain kind of player -- the one who doesn't mind giving up some time in the spotlight if it means they always get to be on stage somewhere. Bard's another flavor to this, as is Ranger to a certain degree... But I think it's pretty clear to anyone, monks are just way cooler

This is true

The cynic in me suggests this is why people persist in claiming the class is any good

Anyway it's 2AM and I'm v tired and this post is probably full of errors, so I'm off to bed.

Edit: See - found one already