Does the Monk class stink?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I've seen low level monks with high stats - they're still underpowered.

At the higher levels they're reasonable, if their opponent doesn't have DR. They have terrible offense and insane defense at that level (not unlike the savant psion). Alas, just because the offense and defense cancel out doesn't mean that the class is actually balanced, or fun.

Furthermore, I don't like those randomly assigned ki abilities. I'd rather be able to choose weaker abilities.

 

[cptg1481]

Hey what's all this.....

I just smelled my monk class (at least the pages they its written on) and they smell fine.....

Humpf.....smelly classes indeed, by whose nose?

 

[Seule]

Monks, in my experience playing one to 7th level and playing with another to 18th, benefit from three things:
Being an Elf, and
having a Druid in the party, and
having a Rogue in the party.

The Elf race is tailor made for Monks, with high Dex and medium size maximizing the benefits of dex while not suffering for small size. Plus they have low-light vision for scouting. A monk makes a great scout, able to sneak up on guards and stun them, as opposed to a rogue who can sneak attack them. A good monk can go pretty much anywhere undetected, and inflict serious pain when they get there.

Druids have several spells that are perfect for the Monk, notably Barkskin, Magic Fang and Greater Magic Fang (my fave). Who cares about Ki Strike, when I count as a +5 magic weapon for 15 hours? Helps that BAB problem somewhat too.

Rogues love having a monk in the party. Flanking pretty much on demand, coupled with the occasional stunned foe, and a companion on the scouting trips.

As others have said, you are not made for the stand up fight. You may not be able to hit the boss, and your damage probably won't matter to them, but if you are only facing boss monsters and no hordes of weenies, then point out to your DM that not only are you neutered, so is anyone who invests the feats in Great Cleave. Players like using their abilities, and any reasonable DM should play to your strengths occasionally. Have the arrogant Sorcerer with a line of minions protecting him, for you to tumble past. Use an NPC archer for him to deflect. At higher levels, try the formation of 5th level Wizards with Fireballs (Improved Evasion and SR will both help him here more thanj anyone). Sure, the DM can screw the monk by making every combat the same, one big fighter in an empty room, but if that's all you are fighting, find a better game. Monks excel more, the stranger the situation gets.

--Seule

 

[Lord Rasputin]

Again, why are you bothering to attempt to use it on creatures with good Fort saves? Or 'creatures that look tough' to avoid metagaming terms? Get in, find the spellcasters, and use it on them! Wizards and Sorcerors have terrible fort saves, so take advantage!

I never see any of these spellcasters. I see monsters, monsters, and monsters, all of which have good Fort saves.

 

[Storminator]

I never see any of these spellcasters. I see monsters, monsters, and monsters, all of which have good Fort saves.

Ah! Clearly the problem is the monk!

I'm trying to remember the last time my foes weren't spellcasters...

Hasn't happened even once in this campaign.

Obviously our experiences with monks are going to be different.

PS

 

[DonAdam]

I'm playing a monk going for tattoo'd monk in Desert of Desolation (1st edition goodness, but converted to 3E rules).

It's definitely turned out to be a bit of a meatgrinder:

So far, everyone has lost a character. Except me.

That's right, I'm the only member of the original party left. Sound weak?

Improved Grapple is one of the greatest utility feats of all time.
It's not about the grappling. It's about forcing your enemies to take a round to get away from you. My grapple checks aren't even good, but I'm still imminently useful.

 

[Bauglir]

Ah! Clearly the problem is the monk!

I'm trying to remember the last time my foes weren't spellcasters...

Hasn't happened even once in this campaign.

Obviously our experiences with monks are going to be different.

PS

Yes, it is. The monster manual, part of the core rules, exists largely to provide a range of enemies for the players. This is not to say that the players should only ever encounter monsters as foes, rather to point out that monsters are the norm for foes and a spellcaster-heavy campaign is the unsual case.

It is only fair to judge the monk's performance in the normal case.

 

[Gizzard]

I'm trying to remember the last time my foes weren't spellcasters...

This is going to vary depending (mainly) on campaign level. At low level you fight a lot of Orcs & Kobolds - if they have much magic its in the form of a low-level Shaman who is not a huge danger to the party. At high levels, those spellcasters become much more dangerous and people start to appreciate the Monk's ability to go and harrass them. But this just breaks down along the lines I already tried to draw: low-level Monks are the most sucky character in the game, improving in the mid- and high-levels.

Also, while there are all sorts of spellcasters, the Monk is best at tagging slightly unprepared spellcaster-classed humans. Trying to grapple an Ogre Magi is incredibly risky in the first place and it still wont prevent the spell abilities for instance. Against a buffed human Mage, the Monk has a harder time also - especially if the opponent has a manueverability enhancer like Fly. Even a friggen' Mirror Image slows you down.

But at least at that point in his career the Monk has a purpose - the rest of the party understands that he's going to do his darndest to keep them from getting nuked by Wizards. But at low level he has no purpose. People continually ask why he isnt either a Fighter or a Rogue, since either is a lot more useful at low levels. "Ok, so you're a fighter who can't fight anything too scary and you're also a rogue that can't disarm traps. Umm."


-edit to add-

So far, everyone has lost a character. Except me.

That's right, I'm the only member of the original party left. Sound weak?

No, that sounds just like a Monk. You have great defense and no offense. You can't save your friends from dying, but you arent enough of a threat that the opponents go after you. Hence you survive encouters others die in.

 

[WizarDru]

Yes, it is. The monster manual, part of the core rules, exists largely to provide a range of enemies for the players. This is not to say that the players should only ever encounter monsters as foes, rather to point out that monsters are the norm for foes and a spellcaster-heavy campaign is the unsual case.

It is only fair to judge the monk's performance in the normal case.

Yes, and last time I checked, quite a few of the monsters in the MM have poor FORT saves, as well. If your DM isn't using them, that's a problem. Granted, the first two you encounter in the MM can't be stunned (an Allip and Animated Object). The Aranea has 5/5/4 for it's saves, which is hardly huge for a CR4 creature. An Arrowhawk has a 4/8/4 at CR3, a Belker has 3/10/2 at CR6, a Bugbear is 2/4/1, a Carrion Crawler is 3/3/5 at CR 4. A choker is 2/1/4, a Cloaker is 5/5/7. Dretchs and Quasits weakest saves are FORT at 3, at CR 2 and 3, respectively. How about the Destrachan? At CR 8, his Fort of 5 is pretty weak. At CR 7, the same goes for a Drider. The Dryad? A Fort of 0. How about the Ethereal Filcher? Fort of 1 at CR 3.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea. Play to your strengths. If the DM is not throwing creatures against a party with a monk that have low Fort saves, that's a fault of the DM. It's not that the MM doesn't offer a large number of creatures with poor Fort saves. Enemy NPC spellcasters are just more icing on the cake. Being attacked by hordes of weak creatures is another.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Did someone say Druid?

A class that relies on buffs from other characters is just dragging the rest of the party down.