Does the Monk class stink?

[WizarDru]

Perhaps so. I think I'll stop here, as the discussion is getting a little circular. I'm still no closer to being convinced the Monk is good for anything, and I'm never going to convince you that it isn't

Been interesting rattling out the details though.

Agreed. I think we'll agree to disagree. Game on!

 

[Christian]

And the wizard?

Wiz 5 - Dex,Con 14, Mage Armor, Shield = AC 16

Because the monk moved to the other side of the shield!

I was just about to mention this. My monk never had any problems dealing with Shield. It's just not a great spell against a character that mobile ...

 

[Bauglir]

Let's add +2 to hit from Cat's Grace -> total to hit +8
Add +2 to SF DC from Owl's Wisdom DC = 17

And the wizard?

Wiz 5 - Dex,Con 14, Mage Armor, Shield = AC 16

Because the monk moved to the other side of the shield!

Chance to hit = 65%
Chance to fail fort = 60%
Chance to successfully stun = 39%

Repeat next round, and the wizard has a 37% chance of not being stunned for a round. And with the monk getting in the wizard's face like that do you think he's going to Hold Person the fighter?

PS

1. Owls Wisdom doesn't appear in the PHB (IMO it should, but it doesn't..)

2. How does the Monk know where the shield is? It's invisible, and a canny wizard will angle it to the side to prevent just this sort of shenanigans, or stay close to a wall.

3. By adding buffs to the scenario, you're making it at least 2v1. If the monk has casters to buff him, why wouldn't the wizard have tanks to guard him, in a fair comparison? And of course adding these factors overcomplicate the scenario and dilute the effect of the class in question..

4. If the wizard will pass on a 14 (I think a wiz5 has a +1 base fort, don't have the book here) there's a 65% chance of the save failing - point to the monk.

5. As I calculate it, the monk has a 48.75% chance of re-stunning the stunned wizard.

6. In the 61% slice where he's not stunned, yes he will. The fighter poses an actual threat. The monk can't deal out enough damage to be more than a pest.

The thing is, even getting past the shield, the monk has a 42% chance to stun the wizard. This is pretty much as good as it gets. A figure like this should be the average, not the maximum for the ability to be useful.

The wizard DID have MA, Shield
The wizard COULD have had:
MA, Shield, Mirror Image, Blur, Haste, Blink, Cats Grace..

And 1 magic missile

Argh I promised myself I'd stop - THIS is the last post

 

[Staffan]

Not core? How do you figure? It's a core spell, as is manufacturing a ring. It isn't listed in the DMG, true, but neither is every other single spell that could be put into a potion, ring, staff or wand. That doesn't make them non-core. The core adventure path series only uses material from the core books, and you'll find a ring of magic fang appears at least twice...and matches the exact calculations the DMG provides.

See any of the bazillion other threads about how the cost table in the DMG for other magic items doesn't mean that you can make a "cast shield at will" item for only 2000 gp.

I'm not objecting to the item concept "enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks", I just think 2000 gp for it is a bit too cheap. Unarmed attacks should at least be considered a double-weapon (on account of not being limited to a single thing as well as considering flurry of blows), and thus cost twice what an equivalent weapon costs. The Amulet of Mighty Fists from Sword & Fist might be going a bit overboard in setting the cost at bonus squared *6000; bonus squared *4000 seems more reasonable.

 

[Storminator]

1. Owls Wisdom doesn't appear in the PHB (IMO it should, but it doesn't..)

Yeah, but I've never adhered to the "Core only" proposition, and I've clearly advocated against it. I would rather be consistent than agree with you.

2. How does the Monk know where the shield is? It's invisible, and a canny wizard will angle it to the side to prevent just this sort of shenanigans, or stay close to a wall.

In practice I've never failed to bypass the shield spell, so being able to get behind it is perfectly reasonable.

3. By adding buffs to the scenario, you're making it at least 2v1. If the monk has casters to buff him, why wouldn't the wizard have tanks to guard him, in a fair comparison? And of course adding these factors overcomplicate the scenario and dilute the effect of the class in question..

How many times have you run a solo game? D&D is a team game. Your fighter is busy knocking heads with my fighter. Since I have the speed I dictate the match ups.

4. If the wizard will pass on a 14 (I think a wiz5 has a +1 base fort, don't have the book here) there's a 65% chance of the save failing - point to the monk.

5. As I calculate it, the monk has a 48.75% chance of re-stunning the stunned wizard.

My bad.

6. In the 61% slice where he's not stunned, yes he will. The fighter poses an actual threat. The monk can't deal out enough damage to be more than a pest.

Hit you twice and you're just about dead. Hit you three times you're down, and I get two attacks a round... Go ahead and ignore me, this will be your last round to cast.

The thing is, even getting past the shield, the monk has a 42% chance to stun the wizard. This is pretty much as good as it gets. A figure like this should be the average, not the maximum for the ability to be useful.

I get one a level, I should be stunning something twice a day (except my monk is 16th level, so I get a lot of stuns to throw around)

The wizard DID have MA, Shield
The wizard COULD have had:
MA, Shield, Mirror Image, Blur, Haste, Blink, Cats Grace..

And 1 magic missile

Doesn't that mean I've already defeated you?

Argh I promised myself I'd stop - THIS is the last post

Alright, alright, me too.

PS

 

[WizarDru]

See any of the bazillion other threads about how the cost table in the DMG for other magic items doesn't mean that you can make a "cast shield at will" item for only 2000 gp.

Different argument, entirely.

I'm not objecting to the item concept "enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks", I just think 2000 gp for it is a bit too cheap. Unarmed attacks should at least be considered a double-weapon (on account of not being limited to a single thing as well as considering flurry of blows), and thus cost twice what an equivalent weapon costs. The Amulet of Mighty Fists from Sword & Fist might be going a bit overboard in setting the cost at bonus squared *6000; bonus squared *4000 seems more reasonable.

I'm not arguing either way, quite honestly. I'd have to check the FAQ to see how MW/GMW casts on guantlets...but it's not really two weapons. True TWF would give an extra iterative attack, with all the necessary lowered bonuses, which enchanted gauntlets do not do. The monk's UAB is lower than his armed one, which is already factored into the cost.

Heh. Sword&Fist being accused of going overboard. Never heard that before.

 

[Utrecht]

Something else that I have found my monk to particularly good at is the ability to sunder items. My Ftr4/Mnk8 with Sunder, Improved Sunder and Eagle Claw attack is devastating to opponents weapons and armor.

Now granted these capabilities are open to Fighters (and one less feat to do it) Part of being in a support role is that rather than focusing on dealing damage, I can actual use tactics - and sundering is one of my favorites.

Second, I have the improved grapple feat from OA - which allows me to initiate a grapple at anytime I do damage. The DM toned it down to only be the first attack, but still - hitting a mage inevitable involves a grapple attempt - and grappled mages cast no spells........

 

[Eldorian]

Thats one thing I've never understood. Why do monks need eagle claw to sunder items? Thier fists are blunt weapons, and you can sunder items with blunt weapons, ergo, monks can sunder with their fists. Seems pretty clear to me. Ah well.

As for the ring of magic fang thing. Ok.. but since a monk is assumed to be using, and I quote, "eighter fist interchangeably, ... elbows, knees, and feet." You need 8 of them rings. At the very least, 2, for each fist. Hence the price on the amulet of mighty fists, although I agree that it should cost closer to the price of a double weapon, because fighting unarmed and fighting with two weapons have similiar mechanics, due to flurry of blows.

Anyways..

Eldorian Antar

 

[Gizzard]

It was the monk and the rogue who made a beeline up there and eliminated them, not the barbarian, the wizard or the cleric. Could the wizard have used a magic missle? Sure...

So I guess we've proven that a Monk is at least as good as a Magic Missile? ;-)

You asked earlier what a support fighter was (as opposed to a front-line fighter), and I'll tell you how I view them: characters who engage in melee but are not expected or likely to be the ones to bring them down by damage. They support the main fighters with flanks, attacks to aid and a host of special abilities.

Even at 5th level (IMHO) it was already pointless to be a "support fighter". The (Half-Orc) Barbarian is like +13 when he is Raging - he doesn't need my pathetic +2 Flanking bonus. And I imagine this only gets worse at higher levels.

The best thing I can do for the party in a hard fight is use my ultra-high AC to tie up a foe (like a Troll) who is too stupid to stop attacking me. It's a valid "support role", but if there's anything less fun than saying, "I taunt the Troll while remaining Total Defensive," during combat I can't imagine what it is.

Also, as someone else suggested, Monks can be useful caddies - bringing Potions past AoOs to the real fighters who need them. In this role I'm a slightly improved version Unseen Servant, but that only makes sense since I started off this discussion being about equal to Magic Missile - which is also a first level Wizard spell. ;-)

 

[WizarDru]

Even at 5th level (IMHO) it was already pointless to be a "support fighter". The (Half-Orc) Barbarian is like +13 when he is Raging - he doesn't need my pathetic +2 Flanking bonus. And I imagine this only gets worse at higher levels.

Speaking from experience, I can tell you that you imagine incorrectly. At 6th level, what happens? Second iterative attack. Suddenly, That +14 just went to a +9. Flipping open the MM to the first CR 5/6 creature and I find the Acherai, with an AC of 20. The first hit has a 30% chance of failure, and the second attack has a 55% chance of failure. Now, here comes the monk, who flanks and aids the attack. Now the first hit has a 10% chance of failure, and the second iterative attack has a 35% chance of failure (or to restate, alone:70%/45% versus 90%/65%). If you don't think that the barbarian could use that, I don't know what to tell you.

As levels increase, so does the monk's versatility. And don't underestimate the monk's ability to SURVIVE. Good saves are a necessity at high levels, where everything has spell-like abilities that can be a party's doom. A monk with a ring of spellstoring loaded with a dim door or teleport can turn out to be the party's best hope for survival or escape.

The best thing I can do for the party in a hard fight is use my ultra-high AC to tie up a foe (like a Troll) who is too stupid to stop attacking me. It's a valid "support role", but if there's anything less fun than saying, "I taunt the Troll while remaining Total Defensive," during combat I can't imagine what it is.

That would be "I take a 5 foot step and cast cure light wounds on the monk." This has got to be one catastrophically stupid troll, even for his breed. I realize they "launch themselves into combat without hesitation, flailing wildly at the closest opponent", but if a barbarian puts a great-axe into my back, the monk usually I can't hit usually gets ignored, in favor of the man-thing that hurt me. And again, if you're willing to risk the pain (and if you want to be a fighter, you're going to have to take it), then aiding another makes the Troll's AC 14 while flanked. That raises the barbarian's chance of success to 90-95%, depending of 5th or 6th level (and it ain't getting higher than 95%). Once it's down, who cares if it regenerates?

And this is another case of me wondering where the monk's faults appear to lie. Earlier in the thread, someone states that the monk's AC is terrible, and always will be. Down here, you have an "ultra-high AC". This just reinforces my perception about the monk's vulnerabilty to campaign-specific styles.