Does the Monk class stink?

[apsuman]

The wizard DID have MA, Shield
The wizard COULD have had:
MA, Shield, Mirror Image, Blur, Haste, Blink, Cats Grace..

And 1 magic missile

Argh I promised myself I'd stop - THIS is the last post

But... would the wizard have any spells left?

And optimally, the wizard would need three rounds to cast those spells. That's 3 rounds the monk could use to attack. (or run).


g!

 

[Gizzard]

Speaking from experience, I can tell you that you imagine incorrectly. At 6th level, what happens? Second iterative attack.

Ah, OK, true point, I can accept that - the Monks "support fighter" role gets better instead of worse as the party goes up in level. Mea culpa.

But, I'll still hold to my point that if I were a Barbarian instead of Monk I'd be putting +14/+9 of hurt on the Troll myself rather than contributing at +2/+2 to someone elses attack. So why be a support fighter when you could be a real fighter?

Anyway, my main arguement is that the PHB Monk is the poopiest of all characters from level 1-6, so I have to bow out of discussions about how mid- and high-level Monks do. I've already apparently overextended myself by figuring that they get worse as support fighters instead of better as the party levels up. ;-)

This has got to be one catastrophically stupid troll, even for his breed.

There were two Trolls. I tied up one solo while the two real Fighters hacked the other one to death. It was a shining example of Monk-ness IMHO. This Troll could still hit me on a 19 or a 20 even through Total Defense, so I really have to hope that the rest of the party can take apart the first Troll before this one gets lucky and criticals me. Because with my mediocre Monk HPs I can't afford to get Rended. But it all worked out in the end, once they finished the first one, the party swarmed the second Troll and brought him down before I got too badly hurt.

It was a job that no one else in the party could have performed in quite the same way. But, was anyone in the party impressed with my "usefulness"? Not really. If I'd been another Barbarian, I could have stood toe-to-toe and traded shots with the second Troll. I might have died, but it would have been impressive at least. The thing is that Total Defense is not heroic, even if its the best tactic available.

Earlier in the thread, someone states that the monk's AC is terrible, and always will be. Down here, you have an "ultra-high AC".

Well, I am Total Defensive and Mage Armored at that point. But, still I agree - I thought people generally felt that the Monk can have a very good AC (and thats been my experience). So I'm also curious about the guy who felt Monk ACs were not good.

 

[Victim]

Honestly, I don't see why Stunning Fist is such a huge point in this discussion, when you consider some of the other abilities the class gets (albeit at higher levels):

Wholeness of Body
Diamond Soul
Leap of the Clouds (much more useful if you're into playing the acrobatic monk, as I am)
Improved Evasion
Abundant Step
Quivering Palm
Empty Body
etc.

Honestly, I expected Abundant Step, Quivering Palm, and Empty Body to be big points of debate.

When you think about the fact that the monk can (basically) teleport himself, kill with a touch (and the target doesn't even have to die immediately!), and make themselves incorporeal, whether or not you can stun someone for a round isn't that big of a deal.

Diamond Body and Soul are good.

Quivering Palm is a very crappy save or die spell. The target must have fewer HD than the monk. Also, Quivering Palm has much the same problems as stunning fist in that the monk needs to hit and the target needs to fail a save.

I'm not impressed with high level class abilities that duplicate generally low level spell effects. They can usually duplicated with items that high level characters can afford. "Look my monk got Abundant Step! This makes him not being able to fight." "Hey, my fighter called dibs on that cape. It's cape of the mountebank. Sweet. Now I can D-Door 1/day too."

While a monk is surviveable, since it generally comes at the expense of offensive ability, the monk probably contributes to overall party fatalities. If you replace the monk with a character that actually does something, in most cases the group will be better off.

However, a monk works nicely with more covert approaches. First, he doesn't need any weapons. Monks also have Diplomacy, Perform, and stealth skills, along with a decent number of skill points. They don't fight that much worse than rogues, and stunning fist has a nice syngery with sneak attack.

With a greater combat focus, I actually think that weapon finess should be avoided. Reliance on dex means that the monk further emphasizes defense. Monks generally have pretty random damage since they get bigger dice but don't get much in the way of magic bonuses. d20+5 isn't really that much. By going STR + WIS, instead of DEX +WIS, the monk will hit as often or more than the finess monk (he saves a feat, maybe gets focus instead of finess) and actually does noticeable damage. Defense does suffer a bit, though, so you'll probably need a good cleric around.

 

[doraemon8]

The monk is ultimate survival. If you take away all weapons, take away the "required" amount for sleep, he can last. He's not a front line fighter and he's not a back line defense. However, he can do stints in both. Imagine the monk like the martial artists from movies, they go everywhere. They fill in gaps and balance out large fights. I know my favorite class is the monk (mainly due to the fact that the monk is akin to a superhero).
Another interesting thing about the monk is the fact that he does not cost much money to upkeep. If you're a fist guy (like i am), he doesn't pay costs in armor and weapons (so you may concentrate on magical bonuses), he does not need material components, magical scrolls, and he can hold his own. His speed is also a big benefit, he can run like the dickens and his abilities let him go anywhere. Also, an important factor in being a monk is his wisdom. It's very important and it also helps that a monk's saves (especially will) gives a bonus to front liners. After all, fighters have a tendency to be mentally overpowered, and the monk helps that out. He's the mix of all classes and he is a class of his own. etc etc etc.

 

[randomninja]

I'm going to take a little more moderate position here. I agree that the monk doesn't stink, he isn't worthless, he's extremely cool, and he's my favorite class.

I do think that he is underpowered though, and reading this thread has really confirmed it for me. All of the monk supporters say about the same thing:

"Monks are awesome! They know how to survive, how to carry potions, how to leap around in a rather impressive manner, survive spells, dodge attacks, make rude comments about monsters mothers so the rouge can stab them in the back, bully those unfortunates who are weaker than themselves, Kick scrawny wizards in the crotch, trip people with limited fighting skill, put commoners in headlocks and run away and hide better than anyone in the business.
I humbly submit that this is not the behavior of a mystical warrior who has spent his life perfecting body and mind through martial training.
This is a good cantidate for the new Prc. Unstoppable Jerk. Can you imagine people actually joining a monastary for these benefits?
Guy#1 You know, I've been thinking of joining the local monastary, they say those Monk guys are pretty amazing.
Guy#2 But the training is intense right? whats the point?
Guy#3 Well you've obviously never heard of the great master monk Bob, they say Bob had such agility and coordination that he moved at the speed of wind. In all his career he never lost a fight,
lighting bolts, dragon breath, Giant stomping, no one could touch him!
Guy#2 Wow! thats amazing, He must have slain a lot of monsters!
Guy#1 err.... well I heard he could trip like no one else
Guy#2 Did he save a princess or anything?
Guy#1 ahh.. you see he didn't really have time to work on his strength, speed of the wind and all that, couldn't carry much...
But he was so fast that after a while no one even bothered fighting him! They just turned and walked away, that's intimidation I'm telling ya.
Guy#2 right....Good luck with the monk thing man.




Ok so I'm exagerrating a little, but you get the point, I actually like all the monks abilities, I just think he needs a little more teeth. All the monk really needs in my opinion is to have a fighter progression for UBAB (including -5 attack progression) Seriously thats it, exact same cool flavorfull nifty class, plus the ability to hit stuff. I mean hey, it even makes him better at sundering, wrestling, using expertise and being an all around prick. As an added bonus it means calculating Bab for a multiclass monk is about 1000 times better.(checks watch, ah crap, I'd better get some kind of response for typing all this)
until next time

 

[doraemon8]

Actually, randomninja is right, i take it back. I do feel the monk is a tad bit weak. after all, all characters in d&d are supposed to be the legendary heroes we see in movies right? (or at least around 7th level and above). The monks in this game do not have the same hitting power as fighters, they should increase their fighting strength.
from the famous wong fei hong and his no-shadow kick (played so wonderfully by Jet Li and others) to the tough Friar Tuck who may not have used bow and sword but was quite dangerous with a quarterstaff, they all are those who can stay in front line. however, the monk normally fights solo and takes on large groups or something like that. I dunno, the ac of the monk is amazing, out of my group, i think ihave the highest ac with a 31, dex and wisdom added in with a +2 amulet of natural armor. his unique abilities (prestige class: Shintao Monk) allows him to take a lot of damage and dish it out (kung fu teaching style:Iron Fist) that he can wheel and deal in the front line.
granted, there are two types of monks. those that is more based on fighting and those that use their spiritualism. blah blah, etc etc.

 

[Gizzard]

This is a good candidate for the new Prc. Unstoppable Jerk. Can you imagine people actually joining a monastary for these benefits?

That was pretty funny and I agree with all of it.

In a long ago "Monk Sucks" thread I mentioned that the Monk isn't a very good fit with the sort of disciplined Code of Honor that I expect from such a class. I mean the guy's Lawful, he's got to have a Code, right? And if you take the OA Code as a sample to work from you find that you get dishonor for things like "fleeing a fight" and "being defeated in a contest or duel". Fortunately, that code doesnt mention things like "letting other people do most of the fighting" or "flailing ineffectually at opponents". ;-)

Anyway, being honorable (or heroic) in this way seems the right flavor for the Monk, but its in direct opposition to what the Monk is actually good at. The Monk has to sneak like a Rogue in order to maximize his effectiveness, and its hard to reconcile that with the organized teachings of a Monk Temple. Like randomninja says - would you go to a Temple where they promised to teach you how to kick around those weaker than you and how to run away from those stronger? "Punch him in the kidney Grasshopper, then retreat behind the Fighter. Goood."

 

[hong]

This is a good cantidate for the new Prc. Unstoppable Jerk.

That's not a PrC, that's a skill!


Hong "practising his unstoppable jerk RIGHT NOW IYKWIM" Ooi