Does the spell failure chance from armor apply to using scrolls?

[Antikinesis]

I guess when I read "Using a scroll is basically like casting a spell", "All that's left is to perform the short, simple, finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on)", and "Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus", I see three points.

1. Like casting a spell.
2. Verbal and Somatic components mentioned specifically.
3. Material components and foci specifically excluded.

If a quickened spell is subject to arcane failure, why should reading a scroll ('basically like casting a spell', with 'the final gestures required') not also be?

-Hyp.

Wheeee! Here we go again! (I'm surprised, Hypersmurf... I usually agree with your posts.)

1. Like casting a spell.

"...basically like" is NOT "identical to". It isn't even "identical to except for these differences...". Not worded strongly enough to trump the magic-item-activation rules.

2. Verbal and Somatic components mentioned specifically.

Yes, they are, however they're described as the "short, simple, finishing parts"... NOT the complete, complex, standard-action-or-longer, thumbing the nose, making moose-ears just so, standing on one foot gestures that are interfered with by wearing armor.

3. Material components and foci specifically excluded.

And arcane spell failure is NOT specifically included nor excluded. Again, activating-magic-item rules prevail.

-AK

[Edit: spelling]

 

[melkoriii]

What I find funny is the rational that somatic components of a spell is what makes armor get in the way.

Cleric spells have somatic components and they don’t have spell failure.

I like the old ICE Roll Master reasoning. Metal and non organic materials interfere with Arcane magic.

So most armors are made of or held together with metal.

 

[niteshade6]

Well it's worth noting that when you cast a spell normaly, you are also simply making the final gestures (most of the gesturing is implied to be during preparation), and they take just as much as time as the final gestures you make while using a scroll. So really I don't see any differences between casting a spell and making the last final gestures, or reading a scroll and making the last final gestures.

Skip Williams rulings are generaly official, but I would hardly say they are usualy correct (except in the sense that they are correct more then 50% of the time). He makes ALOT of mistakes and questionable rulings, particularly if private e-mails that don't make the FAQ. He also contradicts himself alot. With that being said, I usualy play by his rules, because he's the best thing we have in terms of a rules judge.

As for balance, I think the massive number of players in living campaigns who take a wizard level in order to benefit from shield scrolls shows the lack of balance. Gaining +7 to ac is often enough to make you unhittable. That's easily worth the minor things you give up. Of course the problem here is more the shield spell then the rule. And that's a problem that will be fixed in 3.5, which may balance things out again.

 

[LokiDR]

As for balance, I think the massive number of players in living campaigns who take a wizard level in order to benefit from shield scrolls shows the lack of balance. Gaining +7 to ac is often enough to make you unhittable. That's easily worth the minor things you give up. Of course the problem here is more the shield spell then the rule. And that's a problem that will be fixed in 3.5, which may balance things out again.

I tried this once. I pushed the concept of abusing that first level of wizard while in armor. Shield was the only spell I used. I had pro evil on hand, but I used that a lot less. It was a one shot game, but I notice several results.

1) Shield is damn good for the melee types
2) My AC was almost as good as wizards I have played
3) Scrolls are expensive. I would have to blow 10% of my income on them to keep up.
4) I still got hit in melee
5) it isn't as broken as it appears

The living players who try this aren't going overboard. They are trying to compete with flying, improve invis, stoneskined mages or buffed out clerics. All classes need magic. I say, let the fighters have it.

 

[Antikinesis]

Well it's worth noting that when you cast a spell normaly, you are also simply making the final gestures (most of the gesturing is implied to be during preparation), and they take just as much as time as the final gestures you make while using a scroll. So really I don't see any differences between casting a spell and making the last final gestures, or reading a scroll and making the last final gestures.

I do not agree with this at all. Preparation requires studying a spell book... I see no mention nor implication that this studying involves any somatic (or other) components. I would also like to point out that sorcerers cast spells with somatic components with no preparation required, which implies that the somatic components are provided during the casting of the spell.

Skip Williams rulings are generaly official, but I would hardly say they are usualy correct (except in the sense that they are correct more then 50% of the time). He makes ALOT of mistakes and questionable rulings, particularly if private e-mails that don't make the FAQ. He also contradicts himself alot. With that being said, I usualy play by his rules, because he's the best thing we have in terms of a rules judge.

I apologize for the ambiguity of my post. I meant that from what I recall, most posters here support Skip's finding with respect to scroll-activating-in-armor, not to his findings in general. I could have worded it more clearly.

As for balance, I think the massive number of players in living campaigns who take a wizard level in order to benefit from shield scrolls shows the lack of balance. Gaining +7 to ac is often enough to make you unhittable. That's easily worth the minor things you give up. Of course the problem here is more the shield spell then the rule. And that's a problem that will be fixed in 3.5, which may balance things out again.

In my experience, it hasn't been too unbalancing. It's costly, losing that first round of combat to activate a spell instead.

-AK

 

[Nail]

In my experience, it hasn't been too unbalancing. It's costly, losing that first round of combat to activate a spell instead.

-AK

Unless you're Hasted.

Still, it seems clear from the magic activation rules that there are no Somatic components when using magic items.

That's not to say there aren't "gestures". In game terms "gestures" are treated different from "Arcane Somatic Components".

After all, armor doesn't prevent me from (editied by Eric's Grandma).

......errr, using a finger to point at you. Yeah, that's what I said.....

 

[Antikinesis]

Unless you're Hasted.

Not relevant. That's another short-duration spell, so you'll be spending the first (or surprise) round getting Hasted, then Shielded. Hopefully, you're getting the haste effect from something besides a scroll, because a first-level caster would need to make a caster-level check, and you'd have to buy (instead of make) the scrolls. (And please don't go the "persistent haste" route... the spell's range doesn't qualify.)

And watch where you're pointing that thing, Nail!

-AK