The origin square of the burst from Fireball, targets each creature. Which can include you for you are an enemy or an ally. It is not treated as if you are bursting from the origin square.
Stop.
What you need to explain is how you are an ally or enemy for the purpose of Area effects, but not for Melee effects...
That. Rule. Does. Not. Exist.
Incorrect. It is either one of the two sorts enemy or ally.
That. Rule. Does. Not. Exist.
Incorrect, and is very relevant for this is the defined term of creature-semantics
You said: "We don't care how you resolve Personal 'attack-type' powers. That's not relevant to the task at hand. We don't care how you resolve powers that include 'you' as a target. That's also not relevant to the task at hand."
Because it isn't.
In this statement you are actually speaking for everyone or yourself? Just a curious quick rhetorical question. Anyway, you do not care how I resolve? Seems pretty clear to me the intention of your statement. These are forums and have a governing way of respect and in every post rebuttal you are clearly showing in your language used: "Wrong" "don't care." I have only said incorrect, and proceeded to debunk you; and even given examples to help you (and others). Perhaps I should say I don't care, or you are wrong.
1) Impersonal you, and royal we. Artifacts of the language sometimes used in English during debates. Please don't take them personally, they are not ad hominems.
2) You haven't debunked anything. You've invented rules (Origin squares target things!?!) and called that a debunk.
The origin square is the mark for what you use as defined for adjacent to count. So very relevant.
However, origin square is not relevent to determining allies, or enemies, or what a creature is.
Neither is adjacency for that matter.
I have not done so at all, nor is there any point I have missed. Only you have done to this to me, and to the rules. Look at all my previous posts and say if I have done so.
1) You claim melee 1 can only hit adjacent creatures
2) You claim it cannot attack your space
3) You claim your space is considered adjacent
Ergo, you are inferring that a rule exists claiming melee 1 cannot attack your space, however, you have not suppled said rule, so you have not supported your case.
Almost perfect. A condition may prevent you from targeting even if the action does not need to be used to attack. Such as being unconscious and petrified.
However, those cases are specific instances that do not apply to this particular context of: Using a power to make bobby hit himself.
Only you are thinking this and note your general usage of your language.
No, it is trivial because it is so easy to do that it shouldn't require any sort of example.
There are only 4 points of a square in which you can draw to the intended target and 1 line of effect. Only 1 LoE is necessary for the power to work in question. Even in my example this is exactly it.
With two adjacent creatures, there are four corners per creature (assuming Medium creatures). Any corner can be used as the source or the destination for a line-of-effect. The term I used is 'potential lines-of-effect.'
From Monster A, the potential lines-of-effect are:
A1->B1, A1->B2, A1->B3, A1->B4, A2->B1, A2->B2, A2->B3, A2->B4, A3->B1, A3->B2, A3->B3, A3->B4, A4->B1, A4->B2, A4->B3, A4->B4.
That's 16 potential lines-of-effect.
From Monster B, each one of those lines-of-effect are reversed.
That's 16 more potential lines-of-effect.
16+16=32.
Thirty-two is most definately the correct answer here.
Incorrect. Read the pages as previous noted. It is all there. As for Scorching Burst, a good example and you perfectly are in understanding of the rules here. Not only that I agree with you! It is a burst and its origin square is where you place it, within range of course. Within meaning, up to range if decided, and also meaning your square. So, if you decided to place it on your square (note not yourself), it will have an affect on you. It's an area burst, and it targets creatures which is you, in this case (ally), just like fireball.
Stop.
Enemy's and Ally's definitions are very clear: "Enemy" means a foe of your character, and "ally" refers to your character's companions in combat.
That is verbatim from the rules compendium. If what you say is true, and that creatures must be enemies or allies... and that Scorching Burst can hit you because of the origin square issue...
Then are you claiming that either you are a foe to the origin square of your power, OR that you are the origin square's companion in combat?
Are you assigning some sort of combat faction to the origin square, so that it has motivation, and can actually pick a side!?!
That's nonsense. Origin squares don't have allies, or enemies.
NOW it is appropriate to toss in an ad hominem: How can you be sure that creature excludes or includes or in any way requires allies or enemies, when you obviously do not understand what 'ally' or 'enemy' actually means?
You understand but you do not comprehend.
However, there is a specific that has to be understood. Frankly, I do not think you are understanding any of the posts which I have made. Which is ironic.
There's no irony here. You are, in specific cases, speaking nonsense. In this case, by insisting that origin squares are at all relevent to any discussion of an enemy or ally status... and that by moving the origin square it changes things so that things that target enemies or allies suddenly can change the candidates for those things. That is utter nonsense, and I am under no obligation to attempt to understand nonsense... particularily nonsense that has absolutely zero rules support to back it up.
Any sort of the two concerning targets which are enemy or ally. Not being able to target a creature means it has to target an enemy or ally. As would be described by the power.
Nothing supports this, I keep telling you.
Now, you have a contradiction of your previous rebuttals.
No, origin square and target are two different rules concepts... I never claimed that origin square and target were the same thing. What I claim is that origin square and target are not mutually exclusive, and that's a different thing all together.
You need more than that.
Look on page 220. Even though this is an example for cover it can be an example for a few things. If you are the creator space then yes. If the burst, such as fireball, you are not the space. The origin square proceeds to acquire the appropriate targets which are creatures-enemy or ally. In most or probably all cases I concur that it is not tactical, and smart.
Except that enemy/ally status is not determined by the selection of an origin square. They are as disconnected from each other as selecting your morning breakfast is to what is on my television. They literally have NOTHING to do with each other.
Whoa, whoa! Did you just ask that question?! I have stated it and have given the pages many times, and even yourself have your personal logic for the term creature. But now are asking the question? Creature=enemy or ally.
A Creature is any sort of the two which is enemy or ally. You are not target you generally are the origin square, the creator's space.
What you have yet to prove here... and I repeat this:
That Creature
EXPLICITLY excludes you. You've proven that the term creature does not discriminate to enemy or ally status. You've not proven that it discriminates against you. For it to do so, you must include text that excludes you. That text does not exist, no matter how much you post text that
includes enemy or ally.
I am still waiting for a text step by step resolution debunking using the rules in which we play D&D 4th edition with. There are no mistakes and the origin square is used for much more; you are generalizing.
AGAIN with the origin square. This is the big misunderstanding:
At no point have you proven, or given a single bit of evidence, to suggest that the origin square of a power cannot also contain its target.
Furthermore, you've even admitted that in the case of Area powers, the origin square CAN contain its target, but what you have failed to do is indicate what rule excludes the origin square, nor what rule allows Area powers to be an exception to that rule.
Nor can you; those rules do not exist.
Because normally, means, if all can normally happens it happens in melee 1. Such as an immediate interrupt preventing a melee 1 in that square interned with Dimensional Vortex it does not normally happen.
No one is discounting that you normally attack enemies one square away from you. I'm not disputing that. What I am stating is what a power normally does, and what it is allowed to do, are not the same thing entirely.
Normally you attack the enemy beside you. Rarely, you attack someone in your square. The only thing you can't do is attack someone outside the range of the target.
Incorrect you would use a personal power. As for measuring distance pg 202. Note, one does not start in the space of the creature. It starts adjacent to the adventurer that is closest to the target intended.
Personal powers have nothing to do with this argument; the existance of the Personal attack-type does not mean that other attack-types cannot attack your square. Nothing in the Personal attack-type insinuates this, nor does anything in any attack-type state that they cannot affect you.
The ONLY exception presented is Close burst. That says it does not affect you. NO other attack-type/range combination states this.
