Does Water Breathing allow spell casting?

[Jeremy]

"If there ever is a 3e water rule book and it says that speach is possible with waterbreathing, then cool, till then I'm going to be taking the literal meaning of the spell as the basis for my rules. There are allot of spells that have changed from 2e to 3e, so I tend not to use 2e ref's in my game. The Freedom of Movement, & Fredom spell idea was just a thought. Wanted to see what the masses felt about such a use. As a DM I would simply make it a non-issue by handing out rings of "Water speak" if my players felt as strongly as some of you folks. That way I wouldn't be messing with the spell."

Yes. I read that. And apparently you do feel as I asked. That Core D&D does not support underwater combat and that it is the realm of house rules only.

I disagree, underwater combat is a part of D&D as evidenced by its section in the DMG and by having spells such as freedom of movement and water breathing in the game.

I do not believe WotC intended underwater combat to be relegated to melee fighters with rings of free movement and no spell casters save for water dragons and high level characters with necklaces of adaptation. I believe the system is there already in the two spells available as written to support underwater combat.

I hope that the sage will confirm this belief.

As for "Jeremy assumes", I was simply trying to point out another reason for it to work from an RP perspective since it's been covered in the physics and mechanics directions. And while my hypothesis is feasible, and even likely given the lack of other similarly themed spells, yours including such colorful characters as the Trout King is a little less likely and hard to take seriously as an alternative view point.

Is there any reason you can think of that there would not be a Core Rulebook spell that facilitated underwater combat when both aerial and underwater combat are discussed in the DMG?

Is there any other Core spell you can name that would work better to facilitate underwater speech and spellcasting?

 

[dcollins]

It's been pointed out previously, but there have been rules published from WOTC, written by authors of the Core Rules, for underwater combat in multiple places: Dragon magazine, Manual of the Planes, possibly Dungeon magazine, RTTToEE Web Enhancement.

None of them have given any restriction on casting spells underwater, or required any magic spell or item to do so.

The referenced Web Enhancement (rules on p. 5) can be found here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/we/we20010713b

 

[kreynolds]

It's been pointed out previously

So why bother doing so again if you're not offering anything new to go along with it? (Just pokin')

 

[Jeremy]

Thanks dcollins.

The Effects of Water
Land-based creatures can have considerable difficulty when trying to fight in the water. Water affects a creature’s attacks rolls, dam-age,
Armor Class, and Movement. In some cases, a creature’s opponents may get a bonus to attack the creature. The effects are
summarized below:
Combat Adjustments for Water
Condition
1
Slash or Bludgeon Att./Dmg. Claw or Att./Dmg. Move Tail Off Balance?
Freedom of movement effect Normal Normal Normal No
Swim speed –2/Half Normal Normal No
Successful Swim check –2/Half
3
–2/Half Quarter or half
2
No
Firm Footing
4
–2/Half –2/Half Half No
None of the above –2/Half –2/Half Normal Yes
5
Footnotes
1. Water modifiers apply when wading in water at least waist deep, swimming, or walking along the bottom.
2. The speeds listed are standard for the Swim skill (you can move one quarter your speed as a move-equivalent action or one-half
your speed as a full-round action. To avoid the off-balance penalty (see note 5), you must succeed at a Swim check (DC
5+ the DC for the water). The effects of a successful check last until your next turn. Making the Swim check is a move-equiv-alent
action.
3. Creatures without free action effects or swim speeds make grapple checks underwater at a –2 penalty, but they inflict dam-age
normally when grappling.
4. Creatures have firm footing when walking along the bottom, braced against a wall, or the like. You can walk along the bottom
only if you carry enough to weigh you down. The amount of weight required depends on your size, as follows: Fine 1 lb;
Diminutive 2 lb; Tiny 4 lb.; Small 8 lb.; Medium-16 lb.; Large 32 lb.; Huge 64 lb.; Gargantuan 128 lb.; Colossal 256 lb. The
items you carry to weigh yourself down must be non-bulky and non-buoyant.
5. Off-balance creatures lose Dexterity bonuses to Armor Class and give opponents a +2 attack bonus against them.
Fire: Non-magical fire (including alchemist’s fire) does not burn underwater. Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descriptor
are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a successful Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If successful, the spell cre-ates
a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect. Supernatural fire effects are ineffective underwater unless their descriptions
state otherwise.
The surface of a body of water blocks line of effect for any fire spell. If the caster has made a Spellcraft check to make the fire
spell useful underwater, the surface also blocks the spell’s line of effect. For example, a fireball cast underwater cannot be target-ed
at creatures above the surface, nor can an underwater fireball spread above the surface.
Attacks from Land: Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have
one-quarter cover against melee or ranged attacks form landbound opponents. Landbound opponents who have freedom of move-ment
effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks. A completely submerged creature has one-half cover against landbound
opponents unless those opponents have a freedom of movement effect. Magical effects remain unchanged, except for fire effects
and effects that require attack rolls; these are treated like any other effects.
Ranged Attacks Underwater: Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Other ranged weap-ons
suffer a –2 attack penalty for each 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.
Underwater Visibility: Submerged or swimming creatures may also again concealment from the water, depending on how clear
it is. Even perfectly clear water obscures vision, including darkvision, beyond 200 feet. All creatures have one-quarter concealment
at 50 feet (10% miss chance), one-half concealment at 100 feet (20% miss chance), three-quarters concealment at 150 feet (30%
miss chance), and nine-tenths concealment at 200 feet (40% miss chance). Beyond 200 feet, creatures have total concealment
(50% miss chance), and opponents cannot use sight to locate the creature.
Murkier water allows less sighting distance, and creatures become completely concealed more quickly. The maximum sighting
distance in murky water is 100 feet. At half the listed distance, creatures have one-half concealment; at the listed distance crea-tures
have nine-tenths concealment; and they have total concealment beyond the listed distance. For example, if murky water
allows vision to 40 feet, creatures have one-half concealment at 20 feet, nine-tenths concealment at 40 feet, and total concealment
beyond 40 feet. Water can be so murky that it allows vision to 5 feet or 0 feet. Aquatic creatures can see twice as far through the
water as other creatures (but twice 0 feet is still 0 feet).
Invisible creatures displace water and leave a visible bubble, though such creatures still have half concealment (20% miss
chance).
Holding Your Breath: Any character can hold his breath for a number of rounds equal to twice his Constitution score. After this
period of time, the character must make a Constitution check (DC 10) every round in order to continue holding his breath. Each
round, the DC increases by 1. When the character finally fails his Constitution check, he begins to drown. In the first round, he
falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, he drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, he drowns.
Vigorous activity, such as fighting, strains the character, reducing the time a character can hold his breath to a number of rounds
equal to twice his Constitution score.
—Skip Williams

That isn't pretty but it's the text of the subject in question, and as pointed out, spellcasting has no requirements underwater whatsoever unless it's a fire spell.

So waterbreathing would only make it easier.

 

[Magic Rub]

Yes. I read that. And apparently you do feel as I asked. That Core D&D does not support underwater combat and that it is the realm of house rules only.

um, ok.

I disagree, underwater combat is a part of D&D as evidenced by its section in the DMG and by having spells such as freedom of movement and water breathing in the game.

I do not believe WotC intended underwater combat to be relegated to melee fighters with rings of free movement and no spell casters save for water dragons and high level characters with necklaces of adaptation. I believe the system is there already in the two spells available as written to support underwater combat.

who are you fighting with?

I hope that the sage will confirm this belief.

Shhh... don't say that too loudly, they might here you.

As for "Jeremy assumes", I was simply trying to point out another reason for it to work from an RP perspective since it's been covered in the physics and mechanics directions. And while my hypothesis is feasible, and even likely given the lack of other similarly themed spells, yours including such colorful characters as the Trout King is a little less likely and hard to take seriously as an alternative view point.

A talking fish is to "wacky" for D&D?! LOL
ROFLMAO

oh man yer good... (wipe a happy tear from my eye) Let me just tell my Elf mage & his dire badger famil. that they can't go over to the dwarf's house to drink ale any more.

Oh I wish I had more time to go over this one!

Is there any reason you can think of that there would not be a Core Rulebook spell that facilitated underwater combat when both aerial and underwater combat are discussed in the DMG?

Again who are you fighting with?

Is there any other Core spell you can name that would work better to facilitate underwater speech and spellcasting?

Sorry I don't have a book with me. And If you do, & there isn't , then such is the world of D&D. Spell casters in my game will just find thier scrolls & rings(ect.) of "Water speak" as simply as they found thier scrolls & rings(ect.) of "Water breathing"

 

[Jeremy]

Or they could use the official rules cast away.

Oh, and as you said that water breathing should not allow a spellcaster to cast spells with verbal components underwater, those points were made towards you, to answer your prior questions.

You're right, the Trout King is probably a little, "wacky" for my campaign and apparently ours are quite different. My point was, it is hard to respond or take an argument serious when it used Trout Kings or drinking dire badgers as it's support structure.

 

[IceBear]

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Jeremy here. There is a long history of underwater adventuring in D&D, so I find it hard that the core spells don't provide the ability to do that. It doesn't sit right with me that you have to design your own spell to cast spells underwater when you never did before, and thus I see waterbreathing as giving you the ability to cast spells underwater - underwater races can and they can also speak above water so I don't think it's a big stretch to see that this spell would allow it.

I honestly feel that in many cases when they were describing rules and spells in 3E they didn't explicitedly state some things just because it was commonly understood about how things worked in 2nd Edition and they just didn't write it down.

IceBear

 

[kreynolds]

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Jeremy here.

Same here. I was just arguing that you couldn't speak with water in your lungs without the aid of magic, so I don't have a problem with allowing Water Breathing to let you speak underwater. As I said in my earlier post, if you don't allow it, then spellcasters really don't have any business being in the water.

 

[Magic Rub]

Or they could use the official rules cast away.

Oh, and as you said that water breathing should not allow a spellcaster to cast spells with verbal components underwater, those points were made towards you, to answer your prior questions.

Yes I've seen them before.

You're right, the Trout King is probably a little, "wacky" for my campaign and apparently ours are quite different. My point was, it is hard to respond or take an argument serious when it used Trout Kings or drinking dire badgers as it's support structure.

You're way to serious

I was using the afore noted examples to (colourfully) illustrate the nature of D&D. A place where the fantastic is common, magic is real, & yes some (but not all) animals can talk.

lets break down my point of view.
1. Yes, underwater combat is a part of D&D.
2. I use the literal meaning of the spell as the basis for my rules. As there is no writen rule to support your view.
3. I use a second (in house) spell to fix this, in place of your house rule.
4. If the rule is printed in a future "Water combat" Faq I will adopt it
5. We agree, just not about this 1 spell. Which is fine with me, but it seems not with you.

 

[Jeremy]

K.