Dogs

[sjmiller]

Some of my players and I were discussing dogs that they want to get for their adventuring party. A couple of small players got riding dogs, and another wanted a hunting dog. We got to discussing different breeds of dogs and how they would work in D&D.

The MM states that the Dog listing, “describe a fairly small dog of about 20 to 50 pounds in weight. They also can be used for small wild canines such as coyotes, jackals, and African wild dogs.” The Riding Dog entry, “This category includes working breeds such as collies, huskies, and St. Bernards.” So I began to wonder about dogs that do not fit into either category. Dachshunds are smaller than 20 to 50 pounds. Great Danes and Irish Wolf Hounds don’t fit the Riding Dog category, they are too large. Neither entry in the MM lists advancements for either dog

So, I was wondering, has anyone worked up stats for dogs that are outside these rather restrictive definitions?

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Some of my players and I were discussing dogs that they want to get for their adventuring party. A couple of small players got riding dogs, and another wanted a hunting dog. We got to discussing different breeds of dogs and how they would work in D&D.

The MM states that the Dog listing, “describe a fairly small dog of about 20 to 50 pounds in weight. They also can be used for small wild canines such as coyotes, jackals, and African wild dogs.” The Riding Dog entry, “This category includes working breeds such as collies, huskies, and St. Bernards.” So I began to wonder about dogs that do not fit into either category. Dachshunds are smaller than 20 to 50 pounds. Great Danes and Irish Wolf Hounds don’t fit the Riding Dog category, they are too large. Neither entry in the MM lists advancements for either dog

So, I was wondering, has anyone worked up stats for dogs that are outside these rather restrictive definitions?

Great Danes and I Wolf Hounds actually aren't that big. They're very tall because of their long legs but they aren't as heavy as mastiffs or St. Bernards which are shorter but overall much heavier dogs. Basically they wrote it throwing together wildly different breeds because they didn't really take time.

To fix it you have to break dogs up into more groups
Pipsqueek- [Downgrade size to Tiny] use this for toys and the smaller terriers.
Little Dog- [standard Small dog] use this for the largest terriers and smallish hounds
Just Dog- [use riding dog stats medium size] use this for larger hounds and other working or sporting dogs up to about 100-120 pounds.
Riding Dog- [start with black bear stats up speed lower strength] use this for mastiffs, St. Bernards, Danes, Irish Wolfhounds and others of similarly exceptional size.

Just for some perspective my family raised St. Bernards and Mastiffs. None of the males went under 200 pounds and the females averaged about 170-180. I have personally seen these dogs take apart large male deer like hyenas on an antelope, literally ripping it limb from limb into pieces. In high school when my old car broke down not far from home I used two, just two, of these dogs to pull a station wagon two miles down an unpaved road of north Florida sand. Most people don't have the experience to really understand how powerful a grown dog of that size can be they're as dangerous as any leopard or cougar if they decide to attack.

 

[sjmiller]

Just for some perspective my family raised St. Bernards and Mastiffs. None of the males went under 200 pounds and the females averaged about 170-180. I have personally seen these dogs take apart large male deer like hyenas on an antelope, literally ripping it limb from limb into pieces. In high school when my old car broke down not far from home I used two, just two, of these dogs to pull a station wagon two miles down an unpaved road of north Florida sand. Most people don't have the experience to really understand how powerful a grown dog of that size can be they're as dangerous as any leopard or cougar if they decide to attack.

Believe me, I know all about St. Bernards. I grew up around them, and they are masive dogs to say the least. I know as a kid I used to ride ours from time to time. As I got older, I hitched them to the front of a plastic sled to go tooling around the neighborhood. One dog and I even appeared on a kids show in North Carolina.

For some reason I always thought that Dane's were a heavier dog, but a bit of searching puts them at the smaller end of Saints. The Irish Wolfhound is also in that range. So, larger than the Dog listing, but smaller than the Riding Dog. While I like your ideas for adding more classes of dogs, I am not sure if I agree with how to stat them. Still, a good point of view to work from.

 

[Klaus]

I wrote an article for the Fiery Dragon website titled "Good Boy!", where I put up stats for Dogs. I divided them into Tiny, Small and Medium dogs.

Here are the stats:

DOG, TINY
Tiny Animal
Hit Dice: 1/2d8+1 (3hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-7
Attack: Bite -1 melee (1d3-3)
Full Attack: Bite -1 melee (1d3-3)
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 5, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +3, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +1*
Feats: Alertness, Track (b)
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary or pack (5-12)
Challenge Rating: 1/6
Advancement: 1HD (Tiny)
These statistics reflect smaller breeds, like poodles, jack russells and chihuahuas. 1 HD varieties include beagles, border collies and bull terriers, which have Str 7.

DOG, SMALL
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 1d8+2 (6hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-3
Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +7, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +1*
Feats: Alertness, Track (b)
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary or pack (5-12)
Challenge Rating: 1/3
Advancement: 2HD (Small)
These statistics reflect most breeds, including boxers, bloodhounds and collies, as well as most mongrels (mixed-breed). 2HD varieties include huskies, pit bulls and irish setters.

DOG, MEDIUM
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip (if trained for war)
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +8, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +3, Survival +1*
Feats: Alertness, Track (b)
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary or pack (5-12)
Challenge Rating: 1
Advancement: 3HD (Medium)
These statistics reflect larger or fiercer breeds, like german shepherds, dobermans and rottweilers. 3HD varieties include mastiffs, great danes and pyrenees mastiff.

 

[TarionzCousin]

I've had players in two of my campaigns use dogs. In one campaign, the PC retired his dog after the character was at third level and the dog was no longer very powerful relative to the monsters.

In the other campaign, the player kept using her dog until it got killed. :\

Dogs don't "level up" like characters do.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I've had players in two of my campaigns use dogs. In one campaign, the PC retired his dog after the character was at third level and the dog was no longer very powerful relative to the monsters.

In the other campaign, the player kept using her dog until it got killed. :\

Dogs don't "level up" like characters do.

Unless the dog owner is a druid or ranger. It seems like there ought to be some sort of way to provide that to other types of characters who wanted to sacrifice a feat or two. Maybe Skill Focus (Animal Handling) could be a prerequisite, to make it still better to be a druid or a ranger, but allow other classes to level up their animal companion as well.

 

[hamishspence]

Big Dogs

Silver Marches has the Moonshae Moorhound: OK for a slightly different dog.

 

[frankthedm]

Just for some perspective my family raised St. Bernards and Mastiffs. None of the males went under 200 pounds and the females averaged about 170-180. I have personally seen these dogs take apart large male deer like hyenas on an antelope, literally ripping it limb from limb into pieces. In high school when my old car broke down not far from home I used two, just two, of these dogs to pull a station wagon two miles down an unpaved road of north Florida sand. Most people don't have the experience to really understand how powerful a grown dog of that size can be they're as dangerous as any leopard or cougar if they decide to attack.

Wolves and hyena are both 2 HD. Both wolves and hyena have advancement to 3 HD while remaining medium. Add one more HD to 'riding dog' for those larger dogs should get the result of the bigger dogs you seek. If you are trying to repesent a "Zorba" like riding dog

300 to 400lbs sounds not much more thanthe stats of a 3 HD hyena with a Elite scores favoring STR and CON.

BTW, the rules already allow for 2 riding dogs to drag 3000 lbs.

 

[frankthedm]

Unless the dog owner is a druid or ranger. It seems like there ought to be some sort of way to provide that to other types of characters who wanted to sacrifice a feat or two. Maybe Skill Focus (Animal Handling) could be a prerequisite, to make it still better to be a druid or a ranger, but allow other classes to level up their animal companion as well.

Well if one keeps putting ranks into Handle Animal, young dire animals can be captured and trained. Not the same as a dog that levels up, but the reality a dog is just one more peice of equipment. Just as weapons and armor get upgraded, so do animals.

It will take some down time to train dire wolves and dire boars as mounts, but there should be more than enough of that when players are having mithral armor crafted for themselves. That is besides things like hippogryphs and Griffons which even have market values!

Monster Manual two had a dire horse {lots of room for advancement too!] and a meaty warbeast template.

Mount's AC does not go up much. That is correct. The players should have lots of spare lesser magic defense items at higher levels. If they sold of every Amulet of natural armor +2 and cashed in each ring of protection +2 they could, they deserve to have their riding feats negated by their mount being killed out from underneath them every battle. Any party that won’t spare a mage armor and other buffs for their mounts deserves the same. And for gods sake, if you can Raise your higher HD mount DO so.

I normally deride the spell compendium, but in a mount / pet heavy game, there are several spells that really help. Mass Mount, Mass Resist Energy, mass long strider and Mass Mage Armor.

 

[sjmiller]

Two things to keep in mind are that:

1. Two of the characters who use dogs are Arcana Evolved Faen, so they are only 3.5 feet tall.
2. The Ranger who wants the wolfhound doesn't plan on having a lot of Ranger levels.

So all the dire creatures and feat/spell modifiers are a bit outside the scope of what I am looking to use.