Doing away with Class Skills

Dagredhel

Explorer
I've been thinking lately that maybe Class Skills are an unecessary complication, a superfluous game mechanic. It seems to me that the number of skill points initially allocated and gained per additional level are a sufficient mechanic for skill acquisition and advancement. Having some skills cost twice as much seems almost punitive, especially for those classes that receive only 2 + Int modifier skill points. I feel that this is especially true for the fighter. I would prefer that a player was allowed to develop her character freely according to her individual conception, rather than see her character pigeon-holed by rule enforced stereotypes or punished for originality. I hate the idea that a player might be obliged to multiclass, adopting either a second core class or a prestige class, merely to acquire the sort of skills that the player imagines her character's background story and adventuring career would produce. Furthermore, it seems rather obvious to me that wilderness-oriented characters are unduly favored, receiving more skill points and a greater (better) selection of Class Skills.

So what do I think would be better? I'd scrap the notion of Class Skills entirely. "Exclusive" skills would still only be available to those classes to which they are currently allowed. I'd give the fighter 4 + Int modifier skill points, bringing her in line with the barbarian. I'd leave 2 + Int modifier skill progression to the spellcasters, and to those PrCs heavily loaded with class abilities. I can't see any reason why this would be unbalancing, and I believe it would allow players greater freedom in customizing their characters, while requiring only a very minimal rules change.

I got to thinking about this when I converted my favorite old character from 2E to 3E out of curiousity. Dagredhel was an elven fighter whose skills matched his background story. He was the son of a noble grey elven mother and a high elven father who served as weaponsmaster to the mother's family. Dagredhel grew up in the mountain city of the grey elves, where his mixed heritage was a social stigma. As the son of a mother of high station, he was schooled in the social graces and educated in the rudiments of the nobility. But as his father's son, he would never find acceptance as his mother's true heir, as a full-fledged member of grey elven high society. The father, not unhappy with his own station in life, trained his son to follow in his footsteps. As a intregal part of his weapons training, Dagredhel received instruction in dance, both as an art and as a component of his martial style, and in acrobatics complementary to both. Dagredhel had inherited his father's superior physical abilities and exceled at the dance of blades, but his father's stoic acceptance of his lot in grey elven society was beyond the young elf, whose pride led him to seek his fortune and place in life in the wider world. In the adventures that followed, Dagredhel was also well served by the stealth for which his kind is famed, relying on surprise as often as not to overcome superior numbers.

In 3E terms, Dagredhel had the following skills: Diplomacy, Jump, Knowledge (nobility), Perform (dance), and Tumble. In addition, as the character so often relied on stealth during play, Listen, Spot, and Move Silently would be appropriate under the new rules. Dagredhel could swim and sit saddle, but mostly due to his inherent strength and agility, rather than any particular expertise, as neither skill was a part of his upbringing in a mountain city.

In short, were I have played the character under the 3E rules, he would have developed only one skill from the fighter class skill list, Jump, and that skill only to complement his Dancing and Tumbling. When I converted Dagredhel's skills to 3E, I wasn't too pleased by the results.

At first, this led me to consider allowing a player to choose a certain number of class skills for his character that reflected the character's background and probable future development, subject to DM approval. But sometimes characters take on a life of their own during play, and a character becomes someone very different than originally envisioned. To allow and even encourage this, I've decided the easiest course would be to do away with Class Skills entirely, and leave it up to the player (with the DM's guidance) to select those skills appropriate to both the character's background and her exploits during the course of play.

So, what do you think?
 

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I think you cheapen some of the classes by getting rid of class skills. Class skills is a way to balance the class. I also think that playing a fighter in your games is an easy choice, sign me up. Certain skill lists are better. I also think you'll be making it to easy to qualify for some prestige classes. Many have skill prerequistes that are cross class skills for most classes.

I've found that trading class skills works at character creation, but you have to be careful. PCs want the powerful skills like tumble, hide, move silently, spot and listen.
 

There are ramifications to EVERYTHING. It doesn't matter the house rule, something will be affected. Remove favored classes and Half-Elves are underpowered. Remove class skills and bards become the weakest class in the game. Really, they're part of the game and fiddling with it is the unneccessary, superfluous thing to do.
 


Crothian said:
I think you cheapen some of the classes by getting rid of class skills. Class skills is a way to balance the class. I also think that playing a fighter in your games is an easy choice, sign me up. Certain skill lists are better. I also think you'll be making it to easy to qualify for some prestige classes. Many have skill prerequistes that are cross class skills for most classes.

I've found that trading class skills works at character creation, but you have to be careful. PCs want the powerful skills like tumble, hide, move silently, spot and listen.

Which classes are cheapened by doing away with class skills? It puts fighters on par with barbarians, if you allow fighters 4 + Int modifier skill points, as I prefer. So you have the option of playing a fighter character from a less technologically advanced, less centrally organized, i.e., 'barbaric' culture who isn't based around the Rage ability, but has the same skill portfolio. You can play a wilderness fighter who without having to resort to an alt.ranger. The bard could probably stand a compensatory bump in skill points, maybe up to *gasp* the dreaded 6 + Int modifier. Druids would still get twice the skill points of the cleric, but a cleric could become truly proficient in a few skills that reflected the portfolio of her divine patron. A cleric of a nature god(dess) might actually be of some use in the wilderness! Monks have plenty going for them. Paladins too. Rogues? With 8 + Int modifier skill points, they can buy more skills and keep 'em maxed out, and they'd gain access to wilderness skills too, making a roguish wilderness scout an attractive option to the ranger class.

You're absolutely correct about PrC requirements--- I increase the number of skill ranks required to compensate. Its not much of a challenge to convert them, even on the fly.

One thing I haven't figured out yet: how to compensate those classes that are allowed to take all knowledge skills individually as class skills. I need to come up with a fix for that.
 
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1)Bards, Rangers, and Rogues have the best class skill list. Taking away the restriction weakens all these classes.

2)Fighters, Clerics, and Sorcerers have the worst class skill lists. Taking away the restriction greatly strengthens these classes.

3)Now, taking away class skill restrictions and increasing the skill points of certain classes gives these classes an even bigger bonus. They have more skill points and all their skill points will goa longer way, because they never have to pay two to get one rank.

4)This also helps out all humans allowing those extra skill points to go farther.

5)This weakens feats like skill focus and alertness. These feats's greatest power is to increase cross class skills.

You can change around and customise class skills to refelct character backgrounds and beliefs. I just think that allowing equal access to all skills is too much. Your illerate Barbarians are going to have the same access to Wizards for knowledge skills. THis just doesn't seem right to me.
 


Crothian said:
1)Bards, Rangers, and Rogues have the best class skill list. Taking away the restriction weakens all these classes.

2)Fighters, Clerics, and Sorcerers have the worst class skill lists. Taking away the restriction greatly strengthens these classes.

3)Now, taking away class skill restrictions and increasing the skill points of certain classes gives these classes an even bigger bonus. They have more skill points and all their skill points will goa longer way, because they never have to pay two to get one rank.

4)This also helps out all humans allowing those extra skill points to go farther.

5)This weakens feats like skill focus and alertness. These feats's greatest power is to increase cross class skills.

You can change around and customise class skills to refelct character backgrounds and beliefs. I just think that allowing equal access to all skills is too much. Your illerate Barbarians are going to have the same access to Wizards for knowledge skills. THis just doesn't seem right to me.

Now we're getting somewhere!

1) Admittedly, if fighters receive 4 + Int modifier skill points, it would be only fair to give PHB bards a bump up as well. (To be completely honest, I dispense with the core class entirely in favor of several PrCs.) The PHB ranger class is a mess. If it weren't, cooking up alt.rangers wouldn't be such a popular pasttime. I make do with my beefed up fighter, feats that simulate the favored enemy ability, and two prestige classes, one with spell ability and one without. (So again, I'm not overly concerned for the poor rangers.) Rogues benefit right along with the rest when class skills are scraped; they can max out two to four times as many skills as the other classes, can choose skills not on the PHB class skill list to do so (like wilderness lore for a roguish wilderness scout,) and their "exclusive" skills remain sancrosant. And lets not forget their Skill Mastery class feature.

2) Greatly strengthens? I'm not sure I buy that. (Actually, come to think of it, I'm quite sure I don't!) A fighter's combat prowess and a cleric's, sorcerer's, or wizard's spellcasting abilities so far eclipse any game benefit they'll get from skill use that I find the point moot. Sure, they benefit. But the primary benefit I see is that of being better able to tailor a character to the player's conception. The benefit in game terms is secondary in my mind, and not the least unbalancing in my estimate.

3) Right. But I don't seem too worried about it, do I?

4) See above.

5) Damn. Thats a very good point. I'll have to think about changing those too. Oh joy!

I'm still pondering what to do about Knowledge skills, but they're not often all that useful, except as PrC prerequisites, are they? And about illiterate barbarians: Illiteracy is standard for me. I make ALL classes purchase literacy, for each alphabet they can read and write, and I use a variant language skill rule as well.

I like to tinker with the rules. After all--- its my hobby!

Thanks. I've got a lot more to think about now, and I appreciate it!
 

First off, with skills it's really hard to unbalance the game. Tumbling, sneaking (hide and move silently), and detecting things (listen and spot) are, IMO, the most powerful. Mostly, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate for you. If I ever run another game is going to be House Rules heavy as there are so many thing I'm not happy about in d20.

Personally, all classes except the rogue get to few skill points. I even give everyone extra skill points at level one to put in background skills like craft and proffesssion.

You make everyone litterate? Huh, I make everyone illerate. Ya, I use the variant literacy rules, too. Knowledge skills are great for information, but it really depends on the campaign. I like to use them every week to hand out extra info to those who made a knowldge check. It gave a reason to use the skill. I also had it help out research. I like mystery games, and force players to think. Incidently, that's why they asked me to stop DMing.......

Perhaps give Bards and Wizards a specialty in knowldge skills. THey can pick any two knowldge skills and they get a bonus to the skill and a chance to learn info not availible to others no matter how high their knowledge Whatever is.

Personally, I think feats like skill focus and Alertness will still be fine. Even as the rules are these feats lose power with level. a +2 bonus is huge at level one, but almost meaningless at level 20. I doubt I'll ever take those feats again unless they really fit the character.
 

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