Doing Wrong Part 2: Fighters, Wizards and Balance Oh My!

[Manbearcat]

@Meatboy

There are so, so many thematically rich and tactically/strategically deep ways to give Martial classes legitimate ways to represent their martial/mundane proficiency, legendary exploits and the cultural impact of that legacy. Here are just a few; from setting up battle lines and formations, to pulling an ally from a disadvantageous position to an advantageous one, to staring down deaths door and fighting on, to restoring the fighting spirit to a fallen ally, to instilling morale when all appears lost, to sprinting short distances and running long ones with inhuman speed and endurance, to resisting gruesome, immobilizing and debilitating effects, to regaining a moment's worth of shaken composure, from leveraging your considerable reputation to find out what you need to know, from stirring speeches to peasants or to warriors about to face battle, to shaking the will of an enemy warlord and it trickling down to his troops, etc, etc, etc. There are a considerable number more diverse abilities (thematically/tactically/strategically) beyond these:

Originally posted by WotC 4th Edition
Battle Leader
Your leadership experience lets you enable nearby allies to move safely through combat.

Quick Escape
You quickly try to shake off whatever’s holding you.

Sudden Sprint
You put on a burst of speed as you launch yourself toward a foe.

Forceful Drag
You dig your fingers into a foe and drag the struggling opponent across the battlefield.

Get Up!
The aid you provide gets a dying ally back on his or her feet.

Dauntless Endurance
You easily shake off a debilitating effect that would cripple another warrior.

Hold Your Ground
You demonstrate your physical superiority by resisting a foe’s attempt to move you.

Temporary Relief
With a healer’s focus, you look past the pain that plagues you.

Bolstering Stride
You rush to your friend’s side, ready to stand in his defense.

Unyielding
Pain just goads you to greater heights of heroism.

Talented Athletics
You don’t always succeed in feats of physicality, but your failures rarely cost you.

Exemplar of Valor
You brace yourself against the terror inspired by a foe, and your bravery serves as an example to your friends.

Grit and Spittle
Drawing on pure stubbornness, you’re ready see your way through disaster.

Inspiring Fortitude
Inspired by your resilience, your allies find the will to overcome challenges.

Savage Effort
Refusing to be defeated, you press on in a test of endurance or athletic prowess that would defeat softer, weaker people.

Walk It Off
You take a deep breath to fight off a lingering wound.

Strength from Pain
The pain of your wounds opens the floodgates to your inner strength.

Clearheaded
Your mental resilience and training let you shake off an effect that hinders you.

Ruthless Demonstration
The sight of blood and your threatening presence fill your opponents with dread, making them think twice before attacking you.

Serpent's Tongue
Your lie twists in your foe’s mind like a snake, allowing you to hide the venom behind your next words.

Damning Secret
Picking up on tiny tell-tale signs, you divine a critical weakness in your foe’s determination.

Reputation Precedes You
If a logical argument or a heartfelt appeal won’t move your adversary, perhaps the legacy of your deeds will.

Dauntless Gaze
You level an unwavering glare, projecting your focus with such intensity that your opponent is shaken to the core.

Me and This Army
You inform opponents that the adventurers wielding a legion’s worth of blades are, in fact, your comrades.

Steely Persuasion
Your skill with the blade is enough to daunt even stalwart foes.

To the Death
You refuse death’s call and push yourself to keep fighting.

Defend the Fallen
The cries of your ally call your attention and you rush to defend him or her.

Forge Fire Heart
By looking to your own defense, you instill adjacent allies with courage.

Form a Line
You raise your fist in the air, calling your allies to form a defensive front at your position.

Courageous Insight
You have a sixth sense that tells you when your allies are in danger. Recognizing your ally’s peril, you dart over to help.

Mountain Guide
Whenever you succeed on an Athletics check to climb, you reduce the DC of that climb by 2 for your allies until the end of the encounter. Only allies who see you make the climb gain this benefit.

Watchful Rest
When you take an extended rest, you and any allies also taking the rest do not take the -5 penalty to Perception checks for sleeping.

Word on the Street Martial Practice
You snoop around, greasing palms and making discreet inquiries to learn the information you seek.

Decipher Script Martial Practice
You might not know the language, but with some time and effort, you can decipher the meaning of any writing.

Long-Distance Runner Martial Practice
You can run for hours at a time without stopping, pushing past your physical limits without risk of harm.

 

[Manbearcat]

So... It's a feat 2 deep in a chain that fails frequently at higher levels against the enemies you really need it on and does no actual damage? Huh. Well, you sold me!

-O

I missed that you do no damage becuase it's a combat maneuver check! That only makes people more likely to try running past the "defender" to splat the squishy - now there isn't any risk. Fail!

Yup. No activatable control and/or no catch 22 means no tactical depth to defending a position, or allies, on a battlefield.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yup. No activatable control and/or no catch 22 means no tactical depth to defending a position, or allies, on a battlefield.

I'm trying to work out whether it's a better or worse feat than the pre-errata Prone Shooter. Is giving someone a normally terrible option that looks decent better or worse than absolutely nothing? The main reason smart enemies wouldn't try running past the fighter to splat the dangerous and squishy target is because they are scared of being clotheslined by the fighter.

Not to say there aren't a few times when it's useful. Mostly involving flyby attacks, tramples, or people running away.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Stand Still (Combat)
You can stop foes that try to move past you.
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes.
Benefit: When a foe provokes an attack of opportunity due to moving through your adjacent squares, you can make a combat maneuver check as your attack of opportunity. If successful, the enemy cannot move for the rest of his turn. An enemy can still take the rest of his action, but cannot move. This feat also applies to any creature that attempts to move from a square that is adjacent to you if such movement provokes an attack of opportunity

There are other feats like this.

This one as well.

[h=3]Step Up (Combat)[/h] You can close the distance when a foe tries to move away.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn. If you take an action to move during your next turn, subtract 5 feet from your total movement.

Pathfinder fighter has way more versatility that the 4th edition fighter because it can do everything the it can do and then some.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

So... It's a feat 2 deep in a chain that fails frequently at higher levels against the enemies you really need it on and does no actual damage? Huh. Well, you sold me!

-O

Where are you getting this fails at higher level stuff? You might want to try and actually play the game for a while before coming up with stuff like this. Besides, feat expenditure is part of what makes the fighter a fighter. When bonus feats are one of your class features then it's okay to spend feats because that is what they are there for.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I missed that you do no damage becuase it's a combat maneuver check! That only makes people more likely to try running past the "defender" to splat the squishy - now there isn't any risk. Fail!

Damn, we sure do love to move those goalposts don't we?

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Yup. No activatable control and/or no catch 22 means no tactical depth to defending a position, or allies, on a battlefield.

Try actually playing a Pathfinder fighter before you make comments like these.

 

[pemerton]

Unfortunately the intangible of a fighter, whether its their ability to lead or accomplish tasks outside of combat, has never AFAIK been given explicit rules in DnD

Well, in 4e there are a range of skill powers linked to Athletics and Endurance, those skills themselves, utility powers like Fighter's Grit, plus attack powers used in non-combat situations under the auspices of page 42. And then there are the range of Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies that a fighter can take up.
[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] has given a long list of these sorts of things. And here are some links to illustrative examples of play, from my own 4e game.

By there very nature, spellcaster's are complex. They have an additional resource that martial PCs don't have to worry about. A fighter has to worry about keeping his hp in the positive and that's about it. A cleric or wizard has to worry about when to use they're spells

Depending on mechanics, a fighter may have to worry about positioning, weapon choice etc. And depending on mechanics, spells may not be a resource to be managed at all, but simply a suite of abilities/features, much like a fighter's weapon and movement options.
[MENTION=43019]keterys[/MENTION] and [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION] have elaborated on this point above.

 

[pemerton]

Pathfinder fighter has way more versatility that the 4th edition fighter because it can do everything the it can do and then some.

I think there are things a 4e fighter can do that a PF one can't - Come and Get It would be the poster-child, but there's other stuff in much the same neighbourhood.

The reverse may also be true.

 

[Neonchameleon]

This one as well.

[h=3]Step Up (Combat)[/h] You can close the distance when a foe tries to move away.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn. If you take an action to move during your next turn, subtract 5 feet from your total movement.

Pathfinder fighter has way more versatility that the 4th edition fighter because it can do everything the it can do and then some.

Oh no it can't. Any 4e character can make one opportunity attack per turn - stopping everyone who tries to go past. Any 4e PHB fighter stops anyone moving with an opportunity attack as well as doing damage. Any 4e fighter marks whoever he attacks. Any 4e fighter gets an interrupt when a marked enemy attacks an ally. And that's with neither powers nor feats. A Pathfighter fighter can do none of this. When your fighter can't do what a 4e fighter can without either feats or powers, your claim is show to be false.

Edit: And Step Up? The nasty hook there is that your 5ft of movement is an immediate action. In short you can do it 1/round. (And it takes the 5ft step). The 4e fighter meanwhile gets to make a combat challenge attack against someone trying to take a 5ft step as a default. Your fighter still can't match the featless, powerless 4e fighter.

Where are you getting this fails at higher level stuff?

Higher level monsters are normally bigger and stronger - which means that their CMB and CMD scale faster than humanoids do.

Damn, we sure do love to move those goalposts don't we?

You mean that we want things to be effective? Rather than just some vague nod that allows you to claim you can do something while being normally less effective when you use it than if you didn't?