Dollhouse Confirmed for Season 2!

[Fast Learner]

Like everyone said, it gets much better. Your opinion of the series as a whole after having seen only an episode and a half seems pretty uninformed. Doesn't seem like applying your experience to "Dollhouse" as a whole makes much sense.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

What constitutes being informed enough to build an opinion on a TV show? In my experience, anything more than one episode is extraneous. For one thing.... it's their job to hook me with their TV show, not my job to nurture it for most of a season in the hope that it gets good. I have a billion uses for that time. The onus is on them when they put out a pilot episode to hook people with it. That's just how television works.

Further, I have a pretty good nose for my own tastes in TV. I can honestly say that I've never managed to enjoy a show on the whole if I couldn't enjoy an episode in isolation (and I tried like crazy with several shows, let me tell you). Occasionally, I have been surprised to see a decent show improve drastically to become a great show. Star Trek: TNG is a good example. But in that case there was demonstrably the seed of a great show there, even when they were busy re-writing TOS episodes rather than doing something of their own. Burn Notice is having that effect on me right now... I'm pretty sure there's a show there. And a 5 minute clip of Secret Army blew my mind and is making me wish for a Region 1 DVD release. But I detect no such seed for my future enjoyment in Dollhouse (seeds of enjoyment for other people are stipulated. They just have no baring on my enjoyment, alas). The handful of times I tried to proceed with a show that lacked that seed proved painful.... like bad relationships no one knows how to break off (ye gods, Voyager!)

Leaving aside botanical metaphors, my opinion is that having Dushku chained to the project (among other issues) severely limits its potential, and I would rather see Joss putting his time into something new or any one of his old properties that have more potential, IMO. As such, I was very much hoping this show would be canceled. YMMV, and all that.

That said, I'm actually glad other people are enjoying it. At least then it's not a pure waste of Whedon's time.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

What constitutes being informed enough to build an opinion on a TV show?

Or a book, or a roleplaying game system, or anything?

I don't think there is a definable limit. The first 5 episodes of a show could suck, the remaining 110 could be brilliant. Or the show remains bad. Or the show gets bad.

In the end, it is not really important, either. It's a pasttime, a hobby, entertainment. If you don't want to spend more time with it, don't.

But anyone that has watched more of the show is better informed then you. That's just how it is. There is much point in arguing. You can say what you did not like, and state that you just don't have the time or interest to pursue it further. Sometimes it needs to be stated that nobody has to watch a show (read a book, play a game), even if is the best show (book, game) in the world.

 

[RangerWickett]

Ok folks. Calling someone 'uninformed' is a) not polite phrasing, and b) not a good way to get someone to watch a show.

Canis, you're totally justified to have ditched Dollhouse after the first few episodes. I did too. Right around the time they had a dance diva on the show, I quit. It was hokey and bad. I only ended up watching later episodes because I was bored as heck one day, and needed something on in the background while I exercised.

I'm glad I did. The show got better. I even started to appreciate Dushku's acting talent (though it pales in comparison to the guy they have playing Victor; the man's awesome).

So if you've got a free hour, I recommend giving episode 8 a looksie on Hulu.

 

[fba827]

Ok folks. Calling someone 'uninformed' is a) not polite phrasing

(snip)

Canis, you're totally justified to have ditched Dollhouse after the first few episodes.

Agreed; Canis, you have every right to have your opinion.

If you didn't like your first date, no matter how much your friends tell you that your date has changed, you are perfectly justified in not wanting to even try a second date -- first impressions are crucial.

I will also agree that the show did get better (from a writing perspective), but it isn't "wow this is so much better I'm going to kill myself for not having continued to watch" type better; some of the things are still clunky (in my opinion) and some of the things you dislike about the series still remain, so if the first impression left such a bad taste in your mouth, chances are you'll still see those bad things that are still there.

Honestly, the main reason I continued to watch the show past the first couple episodes is because it is on Hulu (free and legal online) so I can watch it when I'm bored or want 'background noise.' I would not (for instance) be putting things on hold so that I could watch it when it aired. I like some of the things they did (there was one episode that was the same time frame repeated but each time told from another character's perspective -- i like that sort of thing), and some things I don't like (i won't get in to it).

But, my point, you tried it, you didn't like it, that's all that you need to say 'it wasn't for you' don't worry about it because there is no way it's going to live up to the "hype" of it being defended by others at this point. (i.e. you won't see the last episode and suddenly go "wow, this is why people on the forums were on my head because it is just super awesome cool now")

 

[Rhun]

What brings me back to Firefly and Buffy is always the characters. Additionally, Firefly in particular is about found family, something that I feel very strongly about, myself.

Agreed, the characters made them great. And for what it is worth, Buffy was a lot about "family" too. Sure, she was the Slayer, but without the Scoobies she would have died many times over.

That is what Whedon is good at, IMO: characters. Plot is pretty secondary. Visual storytelling.... really depends on who he's working with. But characters? The man can DO that.

No doubt. Whedon is incredible at giving his characters depth.

But after an episode and a half of Dollhouse, I hadn't found any compelling characters. It felt like going to a Chicago Bulls game back in the day and watching Michael Jordan trip over his own shoelaces every time he tried to take it to the hoop. The sad was quickly overshadowed by disgust.

For what it is worth, it is hard to make any of the Dolls into compelling characters at this point. Their personalities have been erased, and they are programmed with the personality required to do the job. With that said, I think both Topher and Boyd are solid characters, with lots of room to grow. Dewitt seemed to gain more depth as the season progressed as well. And Alpha...well, I think Alpha is a great character, though it may just be the fact that I really like Alan Tudyk as an actor.

 

[Rhun]

I don't think there is a definable limit. The first 5 episodes of a show could suck, the remaining 110 could be brilliant. Or the show remains bad. Or the show gets bad.

I see this a lot with television shows, especially Science Fiction. You take say Season 1 of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine or Season 1 of Babylon 5, and they are just so-so. But by the end of those series, they were two of my favorite shows EVER. It seems a lot of shows just start out slow; you haven't really gotten into the overall story arc, the actors are still new to the characters, etc, etc.

But given time, I think a lot of shows can go from bad to brilliant. They just need the opportunity to get there.

 

[Fast Learner]

"Uninformed" is no kind of insult. It is merely an expression of the amount of information someone has, not a judgement of character.

If I ate only the appetizer at an 8-course meal and I didn't like it and ate nothing else, it would make perfect sense for me to say that the appetizer sucked. It would be entirely uniformed to say that the meal sucked, because I simply could not know.

My opinion about the appetizer would be 100% valid. My opinion of the meal would be utterly uninformed and it would make no sense for me to insist to the people who actually at the whole thing that it must suck because I didn't like the appetizer.

Dislike what you watched all you want. Just don't insist that the part you didn't watch must suck, that's all I'm asking.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Dislike what you watched all you want. Just don't insist that the part you didn't watch must suck, that's all I'm asking.

I didn't say that. There's a vast, yawning chasm between "I don't like it" and "it sucks." I have repeatedly expressed my dislike of Dushku, but I have MANY data points on that. Words like "tawdry" (which probably read as applied to the show in general.... my apologies) tend to come from my opinion of her, which I've jumped up and down on enough and will leave aside at this point.

I did say that I got the same feeling I did off Angel and Voyager, that there simply isn't a show there for me (which doesn't mean there isn't a show there for other people). That feeling has yet to fail me. When I was younger, I would fight it if the creators or franchises had been good to me in the past (Voyager and Angel, for example). Nowadays, I tend to trust my instincts and first impressions more because I have no shortage of entertainment options. The wonder of Netflix is that there are literally thousands of TV shows I can sample in order to fill my limited free time, so I need not be invested in any one show for entertainment.

So if you've got a free hour, I recommend giving episode 8 a looksie on Hulu.

I might. I've been in agreement with your opinions around these parts often enough to think about it. But it would be a hard sell with the wife, as well, which slides it closer to the "not worth the effort" category. I had to burn some relationship credits to get her to try it in the first place, and a second attempt would get costly. I may be able to lean on the Alan Tudyk angle.

 

[Fast Learner]

I think I took your broader condemnation from your earlier post where you referred to it as "Whedon's worst show ever."

I dig now that you're just referring to your exposure.