Dominate Domino!

[KarinsDad]

Some of you are looking at this incorrectly. You are assuming the dominated character knows which spell is going to be cast.

"Let me cast a protection spell on you." or "Let me heal you."

"Ok."

Perfectly reasonable. PCs let other PCs do this all of the time and lower their saves.

By the phrase "against their nature", it means doing things they understand to be incorrect (according to them). If you trick them, they won't understand that (at least until it is too late).

 

[Darkness]

If you trick them, they won't understand that (at least until it is too late).

That's a good point. Agreed. (Assuming they don't have enough Spellcraft or are otherwise unable to identify the spell being cast, of course.)

 

[ThirdWizard]

PCs let other PCs do this all of the time and lower their saves.

Characters do not lower their saves all the time. Not with any (harmless) spell. Read my post above.

 

[KarinsDad]

Characters do not lower their saves all the time. Not with any (harmless) spell. Read my post above.

Ok, so tell him you are going to cast a spell which requires a willing target:

Animal Shapes
Astral Projection
Dimension Door
Etherealness
Gaseous Form
Levitate
Plane Shift
Polymorph
Rage
Sequester
Silence (this would require lowering the save, but a non-spell casting character might be willing to do this if he is fighting spell casting types)
Telepathic Bond
Teleport
Transport via Plants
Word of Recall

Stating that you will be using one of the bold spells might be easier to trick someone with. Start your command off with "I am going to cast xyz spell on you which requires that you are willing. Do not resist me.".

 

[ThirdWizard]

You're right. There are more than I thought. I was thinking they were rare, silly me.

I just thought of something, though. It doesn't seem that the dominated individual is under any power to actually believe anything you say, and probably would not believe you since you've been ordering him or her around for several days now. They seem to retain full "understanding" of what's going on, unlike charm person which is mind affecting instead of compulsion. It seems more like they're watching their body do and say things while they can do nothing to stop themselves, so I don't see trickery as being a viable option.

Unless you cast charm person on them of course.

 

[KarinsDad]

I just thought of something, though. It doesn't seem that the dominated individual is under any power to actually believe anything you say, and probably would not believe you since you've been ordering him or her around for several days now. They seem to retain full "understanding" of what's going on, unlike charm person which is mind affecting instead of compulsion. It seems more like they're watching their body do and say things while they can do nothing to stop themselves, so I don't see trickery as being a viable option.

Unless you cast charm person on them of course.

Dominate person is [Mind-Affecting] as well. All Enchantment spells are (at least in core). So, you do not need to cast Charm Person on them. They are already mentally (not physically) controlled.

"Compulsion: A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works."

That control has limits, but effectively as long as you do not go over those limits, the guy does what you want.

Think of Dominate Person as the upgraded version of Charm Person. More powerful, fewer limitations.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Word wrap in the PHB messes me up again.
For some reason I didn't make the connection of [Mind- to... [Mind-Affecting] Heh...

 

[KarinsDad]

Word wrap in the PHB messes me up again.
For some reason I didn't make the connection of [Mind- to... [Mind-Affecting] Heh...

That's ok, I didn't make the [harmless] saves connection. :\

In fact, I couldn't find the sentence on why you can cast cure spells on unconscious people in the PHB or DMG at all (the [harmless] saves section implies it, but does not actually directly call it out). I thought it was explicitly stated somewhere, but I couldn't find it. Does someone know where it is (or whether it does not exist)?

 

[azmodean]

You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject's mind.

Nothing about making them believe what you tell them, I would argue that believing something on demand that you have reason not to is not an action most creatures are capable of. Plus, the intent seems to me to be control of the subject's body but not their mind. Allowing brainwashing would make dominate intrude on other spells territory, like Psychic Chirurgery.

Not that I'm saying this technique would not be beneficial, just not automatically sucessfull. Here's my scenario:

Spellcaster: "Do not resist the spell I am about to cast on you"
Dominated creature: Saving throw with +2 bonus (If you want to be dominated, no save, but that's a weird creature)
Spellcaster: casts dominate whatever
Dominated creature: If previous save was failed, creature does not resist spell, if previous save was sucessful, creature attempts to save.

In other words, this technique would force the target to make two saving throws per casting of the dominate spell, which seems to me to be resonable.

Notes: Creature and caster must have a common language
Creature must be intelligent enough to understand what a spell is.

A much better strategy would be to have the target take drugs or poisons which lowered their mental defenses. Then you could be pretty much assured of them failing subsequent saves, even if they somehow escaped your control. Of course, this does leave them vunerable to other's compulsions...

 

[ThirdWizard]

That's ok, I didn't make the [harmless] saves connection. :\

In fact, I couldn't find the sentence on why you can cast cure spells on unconscious people in the PHB or DMG at all (the [harmless] saves section implies it, but does not actually directly call it out). I thought it was explicitly stated somewhere, but I couldn't find it. Does someone know where it is (or whether it does not exist)?

The only thing I can find to support this is the PHB saying, "a targeted character can attempt a saving throw if it desires," (PHB pg 177) so basically it has to "desire" to attempt a save in order to do so, which yes means it isn't stated explictly. I remember Sean K. Reynolds brought this up on his message board a while back; I didn't notice it before then.

What really bugs me is that I can find no definition for [Mind-Affecting]. The only thing about it I can find is that anything with that descriptor only works on creatures with an Intelligence of 1 or higher. (PHB pg 174)

Plus, the intent seems to me to be control of the subject's body but not their mind.

That's the impression I get. Perhaps it lies with compulsions versus charms.

Charms affect how the subject views you, while compulsions forces actions. (PHB pg 173) I'll go back to my origional stance, since Dominate is a compulsion and not a charm. I'm like a yo-yo.