D&D 5E Don't play "stupid" characters. It is ableist.

[Jfdlsjfd]

I would not care how non-racist a person may actually be in real life, if they choose to play a racist character, I will be very not cool with that

Does it extend to games set in historical settings? For example, are you expecting your Roman Senator PCs to at least pay lip service to the idea that they can do the many evil-for-us things that were basically expected of them (depending, of course, of the familiarity of players at the table with the era)? Or would you want the PCs to hold dear values? (and if I start a dedicated thread, do you mind being quoted there?) And if the players deviate too much, would you make them face the social consequences of it?

 

[Maxperson]

"If someone already believes in/acts on those stereotypes, it isn't bad if they continue to do so around other people" is a particularly strange stance to take.

I didn't argue this. Nothing I said could be taken for that stance.

So, you don't think that if you're playing with your friends, who might not already be predisposed to act in a stereotypically "stupid" manner, your acting that way won't at all influence how they perceive those stereotypes?

It will not. Not one of them is going to change his behavior or perception of real people based on pretend.

No, but the more you are exposed to a concept, the more likely you are to think that it's okay. Gaming doesn't happen in a vacuum. The more that people act that way, the more people are desensitized to acting in a stereotypically "stupid" manner. Violent video games don't make you more violent, but they can desensitize you to violence. The exact same concept applies here.

Studies have shown that kids don't become more violent or think violence is okay, just because they are exposed to violent games, movies or shows. They aren't going to go out and mock stupid people or think stereotypes are okay in the real world just because someone plays an 8 int PC with a stereotype in a game.

 

[Maxperson]

Is racist, homophobic, etc., behavior OK if it doesn't hurt someone?

I mean, I'm not going to be thought police and say you're not allowed to say bigoted things in the comfort of your own home and with like-minded people. But I'm also not going that it's OK either. Bigotry is bad even if nobody who hears it is hurt or upset by it.

I belong to a minority and have experienced a good amount of racism in my life. I've never once been hurt by what one racist says to another in a basement. So long as it stays there and doesn't come out to someone who could be hurt by it, I really don't care what people believe.

I stand by my position that if it doesn't hurt someone, it isn't wrong.

 

[Geoff Thirlwell]

I think that the language used by the OP comes across as a statement rather than an opinion. Phrasing it in the way they did makes it seem like it was an intentional provocation for reactions for other people to be offended by. In a way, this is the worst form of trolling, baiting for reactions, where because people can claim that others are being “anti-inclusive“ and always be “right”. Maybe that wasn’t the OPs intent but it could have been worded better. Will I get a warning for this? If I can get a warning for being anti-inclusive in a post I made that literally said that games should be inclusive, I really don’t know any more. Starting posts to prove negative reactions rather than discussion should surely be something that warnings should be given for.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Does it extend to games set in historical settings? For example, are you expecting your Roman Senator PCs to at least pay lip service to the idea that they can do the many evil-for-us things that were basically expected of them (depending, of course, of the familiarity of players at the table with the era)? Or would you want the PCs to hold dear values? (and if I start a dedicated thread, do you mind being quoted there?) And if the players deviate too much, would you make them face the social consequences of it?

A historical thing when it is kept subtle, or the DM/GM reminds the players in a session zero that this is just the way life is and the PCs do not need to act it out, then that is okay. I do not expect a Civil War movie to be non-racist, for example. It is the players who go out of their way to express it, like some others here seemed to be doing with their disregard for the handicapped, that is a big no. And quoting is fine.

 

[Faolyn]

I belong to a minority and have experienced a good amount of racism in my life. I've never once been hurt by what one racist says to another in a basement. So long as it stays there and doesn't come out to someone who could be hurt by it, I really don't care what people believe.

I stand by my position that if it doesn't hurt someone, it isn't wrong.

I'm believe that being bigoted is in itself wrong. Having that bigotry cause harm to another person is a second wrong.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm believe that being bigoted is in itself wrong. Having that bigotry cause harm to another person is a second wrong.

And while I strongly disagree with that, I support your right to hold that belief.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I belong to a minority and have experienced a good amount of racism in my life. I've never once been hurt by what one racist says to another in a basement. So long as it stays there and doesn't come out to someone who could be hurt by it, I really don't care what people believe.

I stand by my position that if it doesn't hurt someone, it isn't wrong.

Racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, and other types of bigotry are wrong 100% of the time. It doesn't matter if I or anyone else hears or sees it ever, it's always wrong. Not just factually (diversity has been proven to be beneficial in many circumstances), but also (and especially) morally. "If I don't have to experience it, it isn't wrong" is just an awful position to take.

 

[Maxperson]

Racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, and other types of bigotry are wrong 100% of the time. It doesn't matter if I or anyone else hears or sees it ever, it's always wrong.

You're going to need to prove that opinion. I don't care what someone believes. If that belief is acted on, that's when it becomes a problem since that's when it hurts someone.

Not just factually (diversity has been proven to be beneficial in many circumstances)

Your argument is that something that does absolutely no harm to any living thing is somehow wrong. The benefit of diversity isn't a personal belief. It's action. Action can be right or wrong, depending on if it harms or helps.

If someone's beliefs are racist, but he never, ever acts on those beliefs, who is hurt?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I didn't argue this. Nothing I said could be taken for that stance.

You did state that. When you said "it doesn't leave the game", you said it.

It will not. Not one of them is going to change his behavior or perception of real people based on pretend.

Again, this statement is provably wrong. Nothing is guaranteed, but as I stated earlier, the same principle of "exposure to violence in a video game can desensitize you to violence in the real world" applies to bigotry. Exposure to people acting in that stereotypical manner can desensitize you to that stereotype, which can affect how you act/react to things later on.

Studies have shown that kids don't become more violent or think violence is okay, just because they are exposed to violent games, movies or shows. They aren't going to go out and mock stupid people or think stereotypes are okay in the real world just because someone plays an 8 int PC with a stereotype in a game.

I didn't say that it made people think that violence was okay, it can desensitize you to it (like, you don't react as strongly to certain types of violence as you probably should have based on the severity of the situation). They almost definitely won't start mocking people with mental conditions because of that behavior, but they might be less likely to stand up to someone that is. That was my point. Even if the behavior doesn't leave the table, the viewpoint can, and that has the potential to be harmful.