D&D 5E Don't play "stupid" characters. It is ableist.

[ReshiIRE]

The Flynn effect doesn't prove that general intelligence is crap. There are reasonable and interesting explanations for it. One, for example, is that human nutrition has improved substantially in the countries that have experienced it. Just as peoples' height has grown substantially in a lot of countries as a result of rising living standards, so has general intelligence.

Well, we can easily measure the differences in average height due to having an objective physical difference to see.

However, IQ tests have changed substantially over the years as far as my understanding goes; to the point that its likely the one I did years ago wouldn't be the one I would be given now. How do we rule out that having an effect? Follow on question: say I take an IQ test at the age of 80, and for the most part my brain functionality hasn't changed or degraded significantly. Will IQ tests, taking into account the changes necessary to 'accurately measure average intelligence' , still note my score as above average (really fascinating it did that as I am thick as heck in general, but certain aspects relating to the test really appealed to my interests as I had then - particularly the reading, which until the year I took it I immensely struggled with), or will mine being reduced - seemingly suggesting my, well, general intelligence has somehow decreased? How can we be sure newer tests aren't biased in some regard as well?

Has that potential effect ever been measured or discussed?

As well as that, one of the studies done recently in Kenya, in 2003, mentioned in that page, that parental literacy and family structure were likely hypothesis as to why these children had higher IQ scores. So are these children more 'intelligent', or better educated?

There are thoughtful and reasonable scholars trying to understand these phenomena. Try for example, looking up an academic review article about the state of intelligence research--like any academic subfield, there are many differing but reasonable evidence-based views.

That's not to say it can't also be true that political actors use this research to advance an agenda.

Apologies, I am quite poor at finding studies and doing that type of research - I only knew about the Shaun video from discovering his channel for other reasons. Could you point out these academic reviews and articles about the state of the intelligence fields, as you are so much more familiar with them than me?

 

[ad_hoc]

You should try to consider the optics of your arguments a bit more. Yes, it is (unfortunately) true that a lot of people think foreigners are stupid. Suggesting that if someone wants to play a character who is perceived as stupid they ought to play a foreigner makes it look like you are one of those people. I understand that you aren’t, but that might not be as clear to all readers, and people will be less inclined to take your argument charitably if they get the impression that you’re a xenophobe. Moreover, people arguing in bad faith will absolutely not hesitate to take advantage of this potential misunderstanding, painting you as the bigoted one.

Only if they completely ignore the 20 posts I've made before. I get it, people will do that, but that's on them. If they're just hear to pick and choose sound bites to win internet arguments I don't care about them.

In the OP I say don't play 'stupid' characters. Then I list a bunch of different ways to play characters that are perceived as stupid. The same optics argument could be made about every one of those other traits and behaviours.

The whole point is that the concept of intelligence we have in our culture is a load of nonsense.

 

[Charlaquin]

Narratively in D&D intelligence is more than memorizing facts.

5e PH page 12

Intelligence
Measures: Mental acuity, information recall, analytical skill
Important for: Wizard

Page 177
INTELLIGENCE
Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason.
INTELLIGENCE CHECKS
An Intelligence check comes into play when you need to draw on logic, education, memory, or deductive reasoning. The Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, and Religion skills reflect aptitude in certain kinds of Intelligence checks.

“Ability to memorize facts” is a pretty decent summary of what you’re quoting from the book. A bit incomplete, as it leaves out the deductive reasoning element, but still, most of what the Intelligence ability is used for by characters other than wizards is memorizing facts - or rather, recalling facts that you’ve memorized. Heck, arguably with how wizard magic works, that’s how wizards use it too.

 

[Charlaquin]

Only if they completely ignore the 20 posts I've made before. I get it, people will do that, but that's on them. If they're just hear to pick and choose sound bites to win internet arguments I don't care about them.

You’re only considering the bad faith actors here, and I agree with you, I don’t really care what they think. The problem is that they influence what “normies” think of the ideas you’re presenting. And if you want to see your ideas adopted by the broader culture, the “normies” are the ones you have to convince. If all you’re doing is preaching to the choir, you’re not moving the needle. That’s why optics are important.

In the OP I say don't play 'stupid' characters. Then I list a bunch of different ways to play characters that are perceived as stupid. The same optics argument could be made about every one of those other traits and behaviours.

The whole point is that the concept of intelligence we have in our culture is a load of nonsense.

Yes, and I agree with that point, but if you make it in a way that at a glance comes across like you’re saying in the same breath, “and those traits we associate with stupidity are actually just traits of being foreign,” no one who doesn’t already agree with you is going to want to read any further into it than that.

 

[Voadam]

I have no idea how it is insulting to play a character who isn't from Faerun or whatever. People can come from different places.

It is not playing a foreigner that would be insulting, it would be your equating the foreigner's lack of perfect second language skills with stupidity that would be insulting.

 

[ad_hoc]

You’re only considering the bad faith actors here, and I agree with you, I don’t really care what they think. The problem is that they influence what “normies” think of the ideas you’re presenting. And if you want to see your ideas adopted by the broader culture, the “normies” are the ones you have to convince. If all you’re doing is preaching to the choir, you’re not moving the needle. That’s why optics are important.


Yes, and I agree with that point, but if you make it in a way that at a glance comes across like you’re saying in the same breath, “and those traits we associate with stupidity are actually just traits of being foreign,” no one who doesn’t already agree with you is going to want to read any further into it than that.

You're not wrong.

To be honest I don't even know why I'm still responding to this thread.

I made the OP concise in part to avoid this sort of thing.

Then I made a follow up post and should have just ended it there.

 

[ad_hoc]

It is not playing a foreigner that would be insulting, it would be your equating the foreigner's lack of perfect second language skills with stupidity that would be insulting.

I'm not.

That's the whole point.

 

[Voadam]

“Ability to memorize facts” is a pretty decent summary of what you’re quoting from the book. A bit incomplete, as it leaves out the deductive reasoning element, but still, most of what the Intelligence ability is used for by characters other than wizards is memorizing facts - or rather, recalling facts that you’ve memorized. Heck, arguably with how wizard magic works, that’s how wizards use it too.

I'd say it is part, but a big part is also not.

Mental acuity, analytical skill, ability to reason, logic, deductive reasoning, and investigation all seem like significant aspects that are not memorizing facts. Also education is arguably more about issues other than specific memorized facts (critical analysis being a big one).

Narratively in D&D intelligence is more than memorizing facts.

5e PH page 12

Intelligence
Measures: Mental acuity, information recall, analytical skill
Important for: Wizard

Page 177
INTELLIGENCE
Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason.
INTELLIGENCE CHECKS
An Intelligence check comes into play when you need to draw on logic, education, memory, or deductive reasoning. The Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, and Religion skills reflect aptitude in certain kinds of Intelligence checks.

 

[Lanefan]

I'm not saying that it should be covered by Int.

Int covers the ability to memorize facts.

Among other things, yes.

In game terms, where would you put the following if not under Intelligence:

--- deductive reasoning, i.e. the drawing of conclusions based on facts memorized as above
--- logical thought (or lack thereof)
--- --- the ability to both develop and apply strategy and tactics (often important for adventurers!)
--- the ability to learn new things and-or concepts that don't necessarily involve factual memorization
--- creativity and-or imagination; the ability to imagine new things and-or concepts and, if able, make those things real

Of these, the only one that might have a case for not being part of Intelligence is the deductive reasoning piece; I could see an argument for that going under Wisdom instead, but I'm going with Int for it for now.

A very high-Int character can be at least vaguely assumed to be good at all of these, plus memorization and retention.

 

[Cadence]

Well, we can easily measure the differences in average height due to having an objective physical difference to see.

Measurement of latent variables - the ones not directly observable in the way height supposedly is - has a long history (the field now called psychometrics - as opposed to psychometry which would be much more lucrative). Markus and Boorsboom have a nice book on discussing how to conceptualize the validity of such measurements (although the later chapters are especially dense, and the early ones wouldn't hurt by having either some college level statistical and/or psychological training). Frontiers of Test Validity Theory: Measurement, Causation, and Meaning (Multivariate Applications Series): Markus, Keith A., Borsboom, Denny: 9781841692203: Amazon.com: Books

"IQ" as an example of a latent variable certainly has been abused and much of the early work is closer to phrenology. That's a separate issue from whether there are underlying things the general public would label as "intelligence". Which is separate from if it is worth the consequences of pursuing.

As far as average height, that's only easy because we gloss over the technicalities. People for example shrink over the course of the day, so when you measure them makes a difference. As far as weight, one fun data set in an intro stat book is the daily measurements of "the kilogram". The statistical measurement error models for these physical measurements have some relationships to the psychometric ones.