Doorway fighting

[Unwise]

Good point. Yes, choke points can work both ways. Especially if enemies can buff their front-liners while out of sight of the party. That can be a nasty trick

Make the characters start looking for the doors to get around back of the enemies, I say!!!

This just reminded me, I had a hilarious fight scene once where half the party goes to each door opposite each other to bust in and attack the throne room. Good plan, but it turns out that those two doors did not in fact go to the same room as each other. They ended up starting two encounters at once, both with only half the party. They were fighting the king in his throne room at the same time as provoking the archbishop in his vestry.

It made for some hard GMing, as although punishing them for this was very funny for us all, I did not want to wipe the party given that they had no way of knowing that those doors did not go to the same room.

 

[Saeviomagy]

The problem here is that intelligent monsters are creating chokepoints which do not give natural advantage to the defender, which is a big no-no if you're trying to fortify something.

Another though is that a party of adventurers SHOULD resemble a modern day special forces squad. If they knock on the door and wait, the monsters will call in reinforcements or escape or kill hostages or set off the bomb or otherwise be more dangerous than if the PCs had just rushed in.

 

[Aenghus]

I got tired of doorway fights in 3rd ed, as others have said chokepoints were the only way for defenders to do their job effectively.

Changing this behavior means making it less effective as a tactic - anything else is treating the symptoms rather than finding a cure.

4e has already provided lots of tools to break out of the doorway, but they have to be used.

• large encounter areas
• lots of monsters
• monsters with ranged attacks
• monsters with mobility powers
• multiple entry points
• PC powers that reward mobility
• interactive terrain
• interesting traps

4e modules can be uneven in how well they use these elements. Some of them fall back on old ways of doing things, where holding the chokepoints is the best tactic.

Previous edition modules often have very small rooms that really cut down on potential for movement. Playing 4e on older maps can feel very cramped and claustrophobic.

Another issue that can lead to the doorway trap is the hasty rogue problem. Classes with high initiative tend to be strikers, and I saw a cycle where players with high initiative felt they had to immediately charge into the room, where they were immediately surrounded and knocked unconscious.

The PC reaction to this happening a number of times can make them all reluctant to head into rooms. This can be exhasperated by unwillingness to manipulate the initiative track to coordinate PC actions.

My group learned that strikers are often better off using a missile attack the first round of an encounter rather than charging in, and defenders are the best class for the initial room assault.

 

[bargle0]

Throw an encounter at them with two or more artillery monsters with powerful, status-inducing AoEs. They will never bunch up at the door again. A personal favorite of mine for mid-heroic is the Duergar Theurge.

 

[Ryujin]

We recently had another discussion, on just this matter, that you might find helpful.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/304447-tactical-encounter-problems.html

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, if a chokepoint does exist it should be to the advantage of the defenders. Just don't have the monsters come out. Certainly goblins are not super bold monsters that will rush out into an obvious ambush, neither are most other intelligent creatures. Most wild animal type creatures will try to avoid a fight, you'll have to go in after them. Some types of monsters are easily tricked this way, like say zombies, but not most.

So, really, the choice is between the party rushing in or carefully advancing in a coordinated move.

You can pull one or two of the stunts mentioned above too, but the players should learn which sorts of creatures are cunning and which aren't, so it will be a matter of picking the right tactics for the situation. That pushes the players a bit to think about different ways to do things.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

A good Idea is force moving the enemy into the room and let someone hold the door shut on occassion.

 

[Geffor]

Our DM came up with another variant last night. Some of the monsters had a grabbing attack that they used to drag the affected character into the room with all the rest of the monsters! A smoke bomb in the doorway and it suddenly became far less tempting to wait for the monsters to come out

 

[bargle0]

Our DM came up with another variant last night. Some of the monsters had a grabbing attack that they used to drag the affected character into the room with all the rest of the monsters! A smoke bomb in the doorway and it suddenly became far less tempting to wait for the monsters to come out

Oh yeah, the Neldrazu has an abduction teleportation attack that's good for breaking up the line.

 

[Dausuul]

Yeah, if a chokepoint does exist it should be to the advantage of the defenders. Just don't have the monsters come out. Certainly goblins are not super bold monsters that will rush out into an obvious ambush, neither are most other intelligent creatures. Most wild animal type creatures will try to avoid a fight, you'll have to go in after them. Some types of monsters are easily tricked this way, like say zombies, but not most.

Ayup.

I find myself wondering how much of this issue is due to the prevalence of MMOs, with monsters that can reliably be drawn in to the ambush by leaping out and yelling "Look at me, I'm a target!" Do people remember seeing similar tactics back in pre-MMO days? Grognards, care to weigh in?