DR creatures overcoming the DR of other DR creatures

[Quasqueton]

Take a creature with damage reduction 10/+2.

According to the explicit rules, this creature can overcome up to */+2 DR with a natural attack.

But can this creature overcome */+2 DR with a weapon in hand? It would seem perhaps not. But there are several creatures with DR that wield weapons less than their DR. For instance, in the MM alone:

hound archon celestials (mundane greatsword vs. DR 10/+1)

maralith demons (mundane weapons vs. DR 20/+2)

balor demons (+1 greatsword vs. DR 30/+3)

kyton devils (mundane chains vs. DR 20/+2)

barbazu devils (mundane glaive vs. DR 10/+1)

erinyes devils (mundane longsword vs. DR 10/+1)

gelugon devils (mundane longspear vs. DR 20/+2)

titans (mundane warhammer vs. DR 15/+1)


Add to this the concept that a creature's equipment is, for all other purposes, considered part of his person.

Would it be stretching or breaking the rules to treat a melee weapon as a natural weapon for the purpose of overcome an opponent's DR? Or is this a logical extension of the rule concept?

Should a balor demon be able to harm a gelugon devil with his greatsword? Should the gelugon devil be able to harm the hound archon with his spear? Or do these creatures have to drop their weapons and go fist-to-fist with an enemy to overcome DR? A marilith demon can't harm another marilith with her six weapons?

I'd appreciate any notes, pointers, or rules clarifications you can give me.

Quasqueton

 

[Darklone]

You quoted the rules correctly.

Yes, the weapons are silly for those monsters. They are usually better off using their natural weapons against their own kin.

 

[Quasqueton]

They are usually better off using their natural weapons against their own kin.

But that's just it, they don't have "natural weapons" anymore than a human has "natural weapons". They've only got fists (unarmed) which do subdual damage.

I've got a potential for having some demons and devils battle one another, but they'd have to go into boxing mode to have any effect on each other. That's why I was asking if a rule to allow melee weapons as natural extensions of their DR-penetrating abilities had an official leg to stand on.

Quasqueton

 

[LokiDR]

Each of the creatures you mentioned have significant treasure. If there was any chance of them fighting their own kin, they would use that treasure to aquire the tools to do so.

Yes, the rules are silly.
No, weapons in hand are not natural weapons.
Yes, changing the natual weapons to include held weapons would be bad.

Read Forsaker. The have a class ability that explicitly breaks the natural weapon rule.

 

[dcollins]

But that's just it, they don't have "natural weapons" anymore than a human has "natural weapons". They've only got fists (unarmed) which do subdual damage.

I've got a potential for having some demons and devils battle one another, but they'd have to go into boxing mode to have any effect on each other...

On the contrary, most of the creatures do have natural weapons as an option. Balors have slam attacks. Gelugons have claws, bite, and tail. A marilith has tail slam, improved grab, and constrict abilities.

By the rules, when these creatures confront each other, they're basically forced to drop their weapons and resort to savagely ripping each other parts with their bare hands, and I actually think that fits with the flavor of the creatures.

(Supposedly under 3.5 the DR numbers will be reduced, and then blasting through the DR with a weapon and a lot of damage will also be an additionally reasonable option, apparently.)

 

[LokiDR]

I think you should do whatever fits the game you want to play best. Maybe one demon has gotten a hold of a holy sword so he kill others. That could be good for the PCs, if they get it. Maybe the devil/demons that don't have natural attacks take the improved unarmed feat. It could make for some savage battles. If you don't want to deal with it, or want the players to use one side of a demon conflict against the other, just ignore the DR rule.

Bottom line: do what ever you think would be the most fun.