DR for Minions - 4 + 1/2 level?

[S'mon]

I'm not happy about the paper-bag feeling of minions, especially their propensity to die to trivial damage and no-attack-roll area effect damage at start of turn, before they can even act. But I still want PCs to be able to plough through a bunch of them. I've considered giving them hit points but everyone seems to hate that idea; giving them DR would not require any book-keeping, still allows for insta-kills on moderate damage, and I think it's more satisfying for players to roll damage.

So, do you think using their standard damage, DR 4 + 1/2 level, is about right for my purposes? That would give them between DR 4 at 1st to DR 19 at 30th.

 

[hipnotode]

i would go for 5+1/2 level and up it to 10+1/2 level at level 16 maybe. maybe even 6&12... depends on how min-maxed the players are (+5 skill damage + 1 for focus at level 1 means they have to roll to kill atleast)
it is an idea i have been toying with myself, but i was thinking of maybe using some minions with resist all and others without...

 

[keterys]

This discussion has come up before, and there are a few things you want to determine:

Is it a bad thing for the splash damage from Cleave to kill a minion? That would set your bar low, unless you made an exception for it.

Do you ever want an actual hit, to fail to kill a minion? What if that hit is something like Twin Strike (1W no stat mod) or Knockdown Assault (just a stat modifier, like Cleave)?

Damage varies wildly based on what item rules you use for your game, and the optimization efforts and skills of your players. It is an easy thing for a 21st paladin to deal only 2d8+12 damage on a hit. 4 + 1/2 level sounds reasonable then, for not humiliating him by failing to kill on a hit. Hand of Radiance at that level might similarly deal only 2d4+12, which means 10 + 1/2 level might entirely shut it down.

Part of me suspects that a resistance that only triggered when a creature is not _hit_ might be more appropriate.

 

[hipnotode]

This discussion has come up before, and there are a few things you want to determine:

Is it a bad thing for the splash damage from Cleave to kill a minion? That would set your bar low, unless you made an exception for it.

Do you ever want an actual hit, to fail to kill a minion? What if that hit is something like Twin Strike (1W no stat mod) or Knockdown Assault (just a stat modifier, like Cleave)?

Damage varies wildly based on what item rules you use for your game, and the optimization efforts and skills of your players. It is an easy thing for a 21st paladin to deal only 2d8+12 damage on a hit. 4 + 1/2 level sounds reasonable then, for not humiliating him by failing to kill on a hit. Hand of Radiance at that level might similarly deal only 2d4+12, which means 10 + 1/2 level might entirely shut it down.

Part of me suspects that a resistance that only triggered when a creature is not _hit_ might be more appropriate.

hmm, you make some good points there.
i think next time i run a game i might aply a N+1/2 level on a non hit, and just N? for a hit resistance, but only on certain minions...
i like the idea that some minions would be slightly harder to kill than others, leaving some to be killed by off-hits etc, whilst others are slightly harder, and require little more effort. i dont know, am i asking too much from minions here?

 

[RangerWickett]

What has worked for us is this:

If a minion takes damage in one batch equal to 5 + 1/2 his level, he dies. Otherwise, he is 'bloodied.' If a bloodied minion takes damage from any source, he dies. This replaces the "never takes damage on a miss" rule, and balances the minion-chewing power of stuff like cleave, flaming sphere, and zones.

 

[keterys]

Yeah, good point - one of the first house rules I'd recommended to 4E (whoa, more than 2.5 years ago at this point, how odd):

Remove the existing minion rule, change to
'Minion Weakness
If a minion is hit for any damage, it dies. If a minion takes damage without being hit, it is not killed, but it becomes bloodied and dies the next time it takes any damage in any way.'

So, automatic damage (auras, ongoing, damage shields, etc) would bloody then kill minions, damage on miss abilities (like dailies, hammer rhythm, reaping strike, etc) would bloody then kill, etc.

 

[S'mon]

This discussion has come up before, and there are a few things you want to determine:

Is it a bad thing for the splash damage from Cleave to kill a minion? That would set your bar low, unless you made an exception for it.

Do you ever want an actual hit, to fail to kill a minion? What if that hit is something like Twin Strike (1W no stat mod) or Knockdown Assault (just a stat modifier, like Cleave)?

Damage varies wildly based on what item rules you use for your game, and the optimization efforts and skills of your players. It is an easy thing for a 21st paladin to deal only 2d8+12 damage on a hit. 4 + 1/2 level sounds reasonable then, for not humiliating him by failing to kill on a hit. Hand of Radiance at that level might similarly deal only 2d4+12, which means 10 + 1/2 level might entirely shut it down.

Part of me suspects that a resistance that only triggered when a creature is not _hit_ might be more appropriate.

Thanks for the constructive suggestions everyone - sure beats my rather traumatic experience with my 'hit points for minions?' thread on rpgnet - most of the responses there amounted to F.O.A.D.

1. I don't mind weak minions being killed by Cleave splash damage. At DR 4 + 1/2 level most would not be, though. That doesn't particularly bother me either.

2. I don't mind if a really weak hit fails to kill a minion. Knockdown Assault is a good example of something that should not kill any but the weakest minions IMO.

3. I wouldn't want to set DR so high that minions became immune to the new magic missile (2+INT mod damage) - MM should auto-kill minions of roughly the caster's level or lower, but probably not kill those of much higher level.

 

[Nightson]

I think the biggest issue with minions is that the XP budget for them is laughably off. I generally take the base number and multiply by 3-5. So instead of having four or eight minions you get a lot more. Now that's not always practical to have that many minions, so if I want just a few (less then 10 say) then I don't subtract a monster I just add them in without counting them.

That worked really well for me, your mileage may vary.

 

[S'mon]

I wouldn't want to set DR so high that minions became immune to the new magic missile (2+INT mod damage) - MM should auto-kill minions of roughly the caster's level or lower, but probably not kill those of much higher level.

Looking at the new magic missile, you do get to add your implement bonus, but not most other bonuses, which only apply to rolled damage. So a moderately min-maxed Wizard might have magic missile damage as follows:

Starting INT 20 (+5)

Level 1: 2+5 = 7 damage, kills minions up to DR 6, level 5.
Level 2-4: +1 implement, 8 damage, kills minions up to DR 7, level 7.
Level 5-7: +2 implement, 9 damage, kills minions up to DR 8, level 9.
Level 8-9: INT 22 (+6), 10 damage, kills minions up to DR 9, level 11.
Level 10-14: +3 implement, 11 damage, kills minions up to DR 10, level 13.
Level 15: +4 implement, 12 damage, kills minions up to DR 11, level 15.
Level 16: INT 24 (+7), 13 damage, kills minions up to DR 13, level 17.
etc

With damage going up 2/5 compared to DR increase 1/2 the Wizard gradually falls behind, but it's very slow and by high Paragon to Epic level he's very unlikely to be needing to fall back on MM, so I think this is acceptable.

 

[Blue]

What has worked for us is this:
If a minion takes damage in one batch equal to 5 + 1/2 his level, he dies. Otherwise, he is 'bloodied.' If a bloodied minion takes damage from any source, he dies. This replaces the "never takes damage on a miss" rule, and balances the minion-chewing power of stuff like cleave, flaming sphere, and zones.

This is exactly something I was planning for next time I run, though I hadn't settled on a damage threshold. My problem is somewhere between five minutes and all night. I don't want a large AoE with a half damage on miss to wipe out all minions regardless, but by the same token I do want a striker with twin shot to be able to take out two a round reliably. It's that "don't make damage on miss" too powerful while also not wasting rounds from strikers not to kill if they hit.