Dragon 338: Returning to Athas, part1

Except the whole "planar isolation of Athas" is hugely overblown, especially in the context of the original setting.

I'm personally less interested in "remaining faithful" then in "being awesome." I don't have much use for historic purity or nostalgia, but awesome in any form is always welcome. The original had indisputable awesome in that brutal world. Isolation enhances that awesome. Low-level 2e didn't have blink elves, after all. And without traditional D&D magic, planehopping player characters weren't much of a concern. If you can run away to a better place by being a 1st level blink elf, it's not much of a Crapsack World, it's just a crapsack neighborhood. Which is nice and evocative, until you move out.

I mean, that's part of why "the gods are silent" has such potency for a player: you are alone, a happy afterlife does not await you, and there is no escape from the brutal world you were born into. That's what motivates you to do Heroic Things like kill sorcerer-kings. The planar isolation goes hand-in-hand with that, I feel.

And, yeah, I'm a little disappointed about how the Feywild is a "magic desert," and the eladrin are basically psionic magicians instead of arcane magicians. For the first, I don't get why magic deserts have to be on an all-new plane (Athas can't have magic deserts without it being the Feywild? Isn't the whole setting basically a giant magical desert? Aren't all those mysterious places he mentioned as inspiration in the real-world deserts?), and for the second, it seems overly cosmetic (I am still a shiny spellcasting teleporting squishy elf, even if my damage + status effects have a slightly different name).

Not that I can't do what I want with the place, of course. And I certainly will, because this is hardly a deal-breaker. :p Just that, for me, a game of heroic survival sort of requires a large amount of isolation to make the survival significant. Years of survival horror fiction would agree with me: it is important that the protagonists cannot reach the outside. Years of postapocalyptic fiction would also concur: it is important that, as far as the protagonists know, there is no escape from this brutal existence (save perhaps death or perhaps heroic change or, sometimes, one legendary Promised Land).

And to that guy at my table who always plays Eladrin, I will say this: "Why do you play eladrin? What's your archetype here? Shiny, aloof, wise, nature-friendly, squishy mage? Try a Noble who is also a Preserver. Nature-mage? Have you given the Primal power-source a look? Wanna be Legolas? Try a standard Elf. Just love the mobility mechanics? I hear Thri-Kreen have an awesome jump ability. Just want the ability scores, act all superior, and hug trees? Heck, use the stats, I'm calling you a 'human,' and we're both happy. You're weird for a human, but whatever. "

I'd rather help them realize how their preferred character elements, whatever they really love about their blink elves, fits into Dark Sun without the need for world elements that I think disrupt the feel, like a Feywild, or a whole race of squishy mages (not arcane mages, but still...).

It's kind of a downer for Dark Sun, but I can presumably ignore it there. It's kind of a bigger downer that even in a world that deliberately and gleefully violates all sorts of standard fantasy tropes, sacrificing sacred fantasy cows like there was a hamburger shortage, the team won't dare to put their own sacred cows on the butchering line. It makes me a little cautious of settings from WotC in general. If everything is just going to essentially look like the PHB with a fresh coat of paint, then it's not really delivering what I, as a voracious consumer of settings, am looking for: a unique play experience. Different adventures to go on. Different kinds of heroes to be. Different realities to understand. Different worlds to explore. If even a world without nature and magic needs a Feywild, for whatever reason (appeasing Eladrin fangirls, ensuring PHB compatibility, or just maintaining Brand Identity across settings), the chances of getting a setting that is compelling and unique enough to demand my attention (and, ultimately, purchase) appears to drop.

At the moment, though, all I can really say is that Rich Baker's post about the Eladrin of Athas sounds like it takes a bit of the awesome of the setting and sells it up the river in an attempt to placate PHB purists. Which is a bit disappointing. Though not the end of the world.
 

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It's going to be okay: Halflings are still cannibals.
eat.gif
OOOooohhh! I love this smiley! :D
 

At the moment, though, all I can really say is that Rich Baker's post about the Eladrin of Athas sounds like it takes a bit of the awesome of the setting and sells it up the river in an attempt to placate PHB purists. Which is a bit disappointing. Though not the end of the world.

I don't know - for me, it is exactly the sort of thing that gets me excited about the setting. Seeing the races turned on their head in a way that enhances the setting is a good thing. It isn't about remaining 'pure' with the PHB races, it is about remaining accessible - having someone familiar with them (as people were familiar with halflings and elves when Dark Sun first came out) able to enter the setting and see things they recognize. Except, of course, everything with a twist, that emphasizes the harsh brutality of the setting.
 

I LOVED the Baker text. Now wanted to see about Tieflings. Dont care if a race is in or out.. im just expecting the Dark Sun flavor in each one..
 

It's kind of a bigger downer that even in a world that deliberately and gleefully violates all sorts of standard fantasy tropes, sacrificing sacred fantasy cows like there was a hamburger shortage, the team won't dare to put their own sacred cows on the butchering line. It makes me a little cautious of settings from WotC in general. If everything is just going to essentially look like the PHB with a fresh coat of paint, then it's not really delivering what I, as a voracious consumer of settings, am looking for: a unique play experience. Different adventures to go on. Different kinds of heroes to be. Different realities to understand. Different worlds to explore. If even a world without nature and magic needs a Feywild, for whatever reason (appeasing Eladrin fangirls, ensuring PHB compatibility, or just maintaining Brand Identity across settings), the chances of getting a setting that is compelling and unique enough to demand my attention (and, ultimately, purchase) appears to drop.
I didn't expect anything other than what I'm seeing so far.

Dark Sun 2e was a product of 2e. It used the tropes of 2e fantasy, ran them through the post-apocalyptic meat-grinder, cut off the gods, and made clerics worship the elements.

Dark Sun 4e will be a product of 4e. It will use the tropes of 4e fantasy, run them through the post-apocalyptic meat-grinder, cut off the gods, and actually ditch the divine classes entirely rather than just make them worship different stuff.

It's a reboot of the setting for 4e. It's not a reboot of the setting for 2e. Had Eladrin, Tieflings, and Dragonborn been core in those days, I'm fairly confident the original developers would have done similar things with those races as they did to halflings, elves, and dwarves.

-O
 

In my opinion, the whole Planar Isolation thing really only existed to keep crossovers from other settings out of Dark Sun.

I know they can't cover ever race that appears, and some I see being easier to integrate than others. Genasi probably being really easy to integrate, as their certainly was a bunch of interaction with the Elemental Planes back in 2e. There's already Githyanki in DS as the "Gith" Marauders, it probably isn't much of a stretch for Githzerai to be around. There's the mysterious all-female humanoid race the Villichi, who probably are Devas.

What I guess will be harder is how to deal with Gnomes and Half-Orcs since they were wiped out by the Rajaat's Genocide in the settings history. Or what to do if a player insists on playing a Divine character class. But it seems like the setting has some pretty good suggestions on what a DM's to do in such cases.
 

Obryn said:
Dark Sun 2e was a product of 2e.
...
Dark Sun 4e will be a product of 4e.

If being a product of 4e, for example, means cramming in the Feywild even when it might hurt the feel of the setting, then I think the priorities of the Campaign Setting line are skewed away from what I, as a big consumer of settings, am looking for.

Not that every setting needs to do something new and fresh and shockingly different, just that a setting which, in part, thrives on the shockingly different, shouldn't be boringly the same. A setting's feel and special flavor is the reason I choose to play in it. If this is the limits of 4e's official creative power, then it's a little sad.

On the other hand, maybe something like Gamma World would be what I wanted in a setting. Though GW seems to have onerous collectible elements, at its heart, it seems to take the 4e rules and jump into a different place with them. Which is probably more what I want out of a setting.

...and now part of me is wondering at a GW/Dark Sun mashup, and going fun places... :devil:
 

If being a product of 4e, for example, means cramming in the Feywild even when it might hurt the feel of the setting, then I think the priorities of the Campaign Setting line are skewed away from what I, as a big consumer of settings, am looking for.
But what kind of Feywild is it? That's a much better question than "Does it exist?" I haven't seen anything yet that indicates it will hurt the feel of the setting.

If there's a magical land of faeries and unicorns romping through an enchanted forest just on the other side of a quick planar portal, I'll have a problem with it. If the Feywild has been put through the Athasian post-apocalyptic meatgrinder, I'm good with it - so long as the things it adds to the setting are cool and interesting.

Not that every setting needs to do something new and fresh and shockingly different, just that a setting which, in part, thrives on the shockingly different, shouldn't be boringly the same. A setting's feel and special flavor is the reason I choose to play in it. If this is the limits of 4e's official creative power, then it's a little sad.
Boringly the same would be using the Feywild as described in the Manual of the Planes, IMO.

-O

EDIT: As a quick note, it's always possible, of course, that the Feywild will end up adding nothing to the setting - indeed, being a big drag on it. In that case, I can still go ahead with my plan to use the 2e box set for fluff and setting, and use the 4e books for crunch. So far, though, I'm largely intrigued by the new and different stuff, and it isn't dampening my enthusiasm one bit.
 
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If there's a magical land of faeries and unicorns romping through an enchanted forest just on the other side of a quick planar portal, I'll have a problem with it. If the Feywild has been put through the Athasian post-apocalyptic meatgrinder, I'm good with it - so long as the things it adds to the setting are cool and interesting.

Based on Baker's post that's how it sounds... There's a Feywild sure- but it's a broken desert spirit world kind of. It's still nature at it's most furious, but it's twisted and dying just like Athas.

(In a way it sounds like if you consider the normal Feywild a beautiful dreamish counterpart to the real world, this would be a beautiful nightmare.)
 

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