Dragon 370 - Design & Development: Cosmology

I'm not sure WHY this is such a big deal with people, honestly...

Old Way: This is the plane of fire. It's a place filled with elemental fire that's inimical to those not prepared for it.

New Way: This is a large, continent sized pocket of fire in the Elemental Chaos. It's a place filled with elemental fire that's inimical to those not prepared for it.

Seriously...what's the real difference here? It looks like it's a pure semantics issue, to me. For most people adventuring in the area, it's going to amount to a name change. Is being able to call it 'The Plane of Fire' really THAT important to most people?
 

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For most people adventuring in the area, it's going to amount to a name change. Is being able to call it 'The Plane of Fire' really THAT important to most people?

Because adventuring in The Elemental Plane of Fire is not like adventuring at Elemental Chaos.

Plane of Fire is mostly like inside a star (rough comparation) while at E.C. you can walk.

People adventuring is not the same thing as story background, also.

Yeah, they change what I liked, I change it back on my games, ok, fine, everybody happy, but why is so hard to some people understand that this change matters a lot for a lot of people...?

Update: I'm outta here, this topic is pointless :)
 
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Because adventuring in The Elemental Plane of Fire is not like adventuring at Elemental Chaos.

Plane of Fire is mostly like inside a star (rough comparation) while at E.C. you can walk.
I dont beleive the various MotP made the Plane of Fire quite THAT bad, so you seem to be in house rule territory to begin with.

Beyond that...According to who? What, exactly, is stopping anyone from saying 'This area of Elemental chaos? Pure fire. Hot. Dont go in there.' How is making one area a plane and the area just a region of a plane really that different?

Again, what are you gaining my making an entire PLANE of the stuff as opposed to just a really large region of it in the elemental chaos?
 
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Shaffer, you are right in one thing: You can put anything in the Elemental Chaos that you could in the Elemental Planes. Probably even more, since it's the elemental *chaos* and you can throw everything together as you like it. But which you use is a mattter of cosmology and setting assumptions. Are Matter/Energy as important as alignment forces in your metaphysics? If so, each should have its own plane of origin, unless you also have the "Ideological Chaos". These are the building blocks of the cosmos, and having them there, or not, and in which constellations, says a lot about what kind of world it is.

For example, in my homebrew world I use a simplified and modified Great Wheel with the three Transitive Planes, four Elemental Planes, two Energy Planes and nine Outer Planes. I don't use the "in-between" outer planes because I couldn't make the symmetry interesting, so I folded the bits I liked from those planes into areas on their neighbor planes. I thought the quasi/paraelemental planes were clutter, so those environments are now found only on the borders between the (finite, thank you very much) inner planes. Are those inner planes monolithic and inhospitable? You bet. Fire in the material sense is what the inhabitants of Elemental Fire *breathe*. They drink liquid flame and their structures are solid fire-stuff, in many different varieties just as Material beings build in brick and wood and glass. And I can hear the naysayers already: "Needless symmetry! Useless fluff! Fancruft! Arm-chair-DMing!"

And it's true, the way they define these terms, but so the **** what? I am an unrepentant armchair DM. World-building is one of my favorite pastimes. The ideas I base the homebrew on should be followed through consistently throughout the setting, or what's the point? If the layout of a setting demands areas to exist that normal PCs ostensibly can't interact with, then so be it. As one previous poster wrote, our world's physical makeup demands the existence of the inside of the sun. Of course we can't ever go there, but but it has to be there, or it wouldn't be the same world! So it might be with the Elemental Planes, or any other foreign plane, in an RPG setting. And why should the PCs expect to be able to exist there anyway? They are literally not made for that world, it should by rights and by all logic be alien and inhospitable. And if that's your taste, it allows for an interesting perspective on the setting when you run an Efreeti game, or it shines a bit of spotlight on the master pyromancer when he can go where no mortal has ever gone before, or it reinforces the otherness of the Azer character who can go where all the other PCs would instantly die, but can't have a drink of water.

Of course, a commercially published setting should allow for as many games and types of game as possible, and should appeal to a wide audience. Different setting assumptions from my homebrew are to be expected, and are probably a better choice for them. But don't say that there's no difference, because the cosmology of a setting strongly informs what the setting is like, beyond just "what you can have there".
 

Wow. This thread got turned upside down.

Who cares? If you want the unusable old elemental planes, stick 'em in in addition to the chaos. It won't matter because you can't really adventure there anyway... See? Simple. Just say they're there.




Chris
 

Wow. This thread got turned upside down.

Who cares? If you want the unusable old elemental planes, stick 'em in in addition to the chaos. It won't matter because you can't really adventure there anyway... See? Simple. Just say they're there.




Chris

The problem comes from some people having such an animus against games being played--by people they've never met--differently than they play them (or as they appeared in books they once enjoyed), that they have to make it known how incredibly wrong certain types of play are.

My general sense is that when you have conflicting views of the Right Way to play, you get insoluble arguments. When you have a vocal minority with an emotional commitment to a Right Way and a significant majority who doesn't see the value of that way, you get protracted, theatrical, and often histrionic spitting into the wind. (Look at anything described as a "culture war", or indeed "edition war", for example.)
 

Elemental Planes are prohibitive places, just like the sun or the center of earth. Should we remove them just because players can't swimm on lava?

If I want to have an adventure set in the middle of the sun... I shouldn't be able to do so?

Hollow World was one of my favorite products ever.

Making it an elemental chaos didn't really remove anything, as other have pointed out it's all there. They just made it all happening in the same place. You can even have more challenges then before:

"Oh crap, you mean that ice bridge we used to cross the sea of lava is gone now? Oh oh..."

Are you trying to argue that all almost all 4E stuff we have isn't a "big dungeon"...? :p

Are you going to argue we shouldn't have Dragons in it either? :p
 

Because adventuring in The Elemental Plane of Fire is not like adventuring at Elemental Chaos.

Plane of Fire is mostly like inside a star (rough comparation) while at E.C. you can walk.
Yet somehow in this inside of the star, characters can travel perfectly fine to the City of Brass? Contradictions within contradictions. There is again nothing prohibiting you from making 99.999 percent of the Elemental Chaos from being off-limits to the players. The design of the EC grants far greater options and flexibility to DMs by permitting the EC to be either much in nature of the insurpassable elemental planes of old or expanded to permit greater access of travel to characters as the DM deems fit to the story. All limitations you see to the EC in comparison with the elemental planes seem almost entirely self-imposed.

Yeah, they change what I liked, I change it back on my games, ok, fine, everybody happy, but why is so hard to some people understand that this change matters a lot for a lot of people...?

Update: I'm outta here, this topic is pointless :)
Whether or not the change matters substantially to a lot of people is highly debatable. People seem to often think that sometimes their views must be the prevailing norm because they are somehow right.
 

I am relatively new to being a DM. During my abortive attempts to run 3E games, I never considered travel to other planes, which seemed too "out there" and whose cosmology seemed too confusing. Even without planar travel, I was always intimidated by the prospect of world building or of mastering a published campaign setting. Now, as I run my first viable campaign, I've learned not to worry too much about aspects of the campaign world that won't impact the players, and I'm itching to lure my party into a Domain of Dread or into the Feywild!

Of course, I understand that not every DM's needs are the same as mine. In fact, I will take this opportunity to express my sincere regrets that the changes WotC has made--a default Points of Light framework and a more accessible cosmology--have benefitted me at the expense of those who were inspired by the old cosmology. What works for me is to focus my attention on the part of the setting with which the players interact, and I appreciate WotC's decision to devote their attention to producing material that directly aids me in this regard. I can only hope that experienced DMs who enjoy world building will continue to use own cosmologies and know how to focus on what's important. But I need all the help I can get.
 
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