Dragon and Dungeon as PDF?

[Umbran]

I'm not sure "all signs" point to PDFs not being ready for mass market... I know a lot of people seem to feel PDFs are the future of gaming.

"Are the future" and "the market is not currently ready" are not mutually exclusive. PDFs may well be what we use int eh future, but that doesn't mean they are what we need right now.

Right now, there's lots of questiosn of protecting rights. Until we have those questions answered, thje market won't really be ready. Right now, you've stil got lots of games who grew up using non-electronic prep, and who aren't actively looking for new methods. Until their wants and needs are addressed the market won't be ready. Right now, the hardware to best use the things is not uncommon, but neither is it ubiquitous. Until it is, the market won't truly be ready. And so on...

 

[DethStryke]

I'm not sure "all signs" point to PDFs not being ready for mass market... I know a lot of people seem to feel PDFs are the future of gaming.

I would respond by saying that those people probably never saw or forgot the fiasco that was E-Books. The moral of that story was that, in general, people will not choose digital copies of text over physical copies of text. You can give them away for free, and they STILL will choose a paper copy 99 times out of 100. Many companies were hurt from the E-book / PDF fiasco of the 90s thinking that it was "the future" of print.

As I stated in my last response, the cost at which most people would purchase PDFs do not cover the costs of making the product from all levels unless it's someone in their garage with donated assistance. If you can keep your costs WAY down, then it's almost feasible, but I don't know anyone who is interested in maintaining that level of production/living. Those who do that are trying to break into the market or get their foot in the door with a particular company. The end goal is, and should always be, to make enough money to at least live comfortably and keep doing what they want to do for a job; not live on ramen perpetually just so some nerds can buy the fruits of their labor at a profit of just pennies on the dollar.

 

[DethStryke]

Every five minutes. Interesting.

 

[Scribble]

It might be. It's not the near future right now. Sales don't support it.

I saw on the of the publishers of a top selling PDF on one of the RPG sites (I want to say RPGNow), say he sells very, very little and made it into the best selling products line.

I do believe you see a lot of people who believe it here, on an internet forum of fanatical game players (fanatical enough to not only play the game, but hang out on a forum discussing those games). However, we're a very small market of RPG players. Not even all of us buy PDFs, or want to. I buy the occasional one, but I can't stand reading a "book" on the screen. I need a copy (and printing them out is more expensive than buying the print version).

Hrmm, but from what I remember, if we're thinking of the same thread, he wasn't saying that PDFs were doing poorly, but the industry overall? IE games and game aid sales were down.

And is there much of a difference between gamer and gamers who post on message boards? I think we're in a transitional element, and the new gamers just are more accustomed to using the internet and computers as a resource. I think more and more you don't have to be a fanatic to be on a board related to your hobby...

"Are the future" and "the market is not currently ready" are not mutually exclusive. PDFs may well be what we use int eh future, but that doesn't mean they are what we need right now.

Right now, there's lots of questiosn of protecting rights. Until we have those questions answered, thje market won't really be ready. Right now, you've stil got lots of games who grew up using non-electronic prep, and who aren't actively looking for new methods. Until their wants and needs are addressed the market won't be ready. Right now, the hardware to best use the things is not uncommon, but neither is it ubiquitous. Until it is, the market won't truly be ready. And so on...

And yes, I realize that ready for, and are the future, are not mutually exclusive, but remember I wasn't arguing for PDFs only!

I think there should be both, that's all. I think PAIZO is missing out on a whole section of gamers that they could pick up.


I'm not sure I believe the it will fracture the market and hurt the physical sales too much theory either.

 

[Glyfair]

Hrmm, but from what I remember, if we're thinking of the same thread, he wasn't saying that PDFs were doing poorly, but the industry overall? IE games and game aid sales were down.

I've seen a number of threads on the subject recently. I've seen a number of online game oriented retailers (not just PDF RPG) say that the amount of online traffic is horribly overestimated. It's moving that way, but it's not really successful. One pointed out that moving to fast that direction could end up with an RPG "dot.com bust" when almost everyone goes under because they moved, split the market before it was ready, without enough customers at either end to support them.

And is there much of a difference between gamer and gamers who post on message boards?

Absolutely. Everyone I've seen talking about it who has access to any numbers say the majority of hobby gamers on the internet are a minority (not counting things like WoW, which doesn't directly help us anyway - in this case, they aren't buying Dragon magazine).

 

[Scribble]

I would respond by saying that those people probably never saw or forgot the fiasco that was E-Books. The moral of that story was that, in general, people will not choose digital copies of text over physical copies of text. You can give them away for free, and they STILL will choose a paper copy 99 times out of 100. Many companies were hurt from the E-book / PDF fiasco of the 90s thinking that it was "the future" of print.

But I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.

An e-book is a lot different then a game book or a game aid... You're not just reading it for the sake of reading it. You're using the things in them, sometimes to a great degree.

I'd agree that I wouldn't want to see reading books go the way of ebooks. I can't curl up in bed with my laptop as easily as a physical book.

But with game material, I'm using the material within. I'm referencing it in adventures, and using it while at my computer.

I can't tell you how many books sit on my shelves at home because they're too heavy to cart around to be used where and when I write adventures, or I just don't have the ability to take them with me...

And it saves me a ton of time when to use a monster or trap, or spell, or effect, all I have to do is cut and paste...

 

[wmasters]

One of the other considerations, which I mentioned on a recent thread, is the international market. If these were avaliable in pdf then it makes the magazines a lot more viable for international readers, where the cost, difficulty and timescale of getting the magazines is a problem otherwise.

Being in the UK, I can get copies of these, at a push, but I've opted for the pdfs as far more affordable, and instantly avaliable, even though it means I've got very few issues.

I hope this will happen, although I don't expect it any time soon. I guess in part Paizo will be looking to see how the pdf sales of the issues they sell at the moment go. Personally, if they can make the pdf of the magazine avaliable at the dollar price of the print magazine, I'd be subscribing to a magazine that I don't currently receive. Whether that thought is echoed sufficiently to make it worthwhile is a question that I can't begin to answer.

 

[Scribble]

And this is what my point is here about thinking PAIZO is losing out to an untapped market, and why I don't think it would undercut their profits.

Case in point, myself. I'd gladly pay for the magazine subscription cost if it came to me in PDF format! The Utility is worth that price alone! Again because I use the stuff, I don't just read it!

As it stands, I preffer buying individual copies because the price isn't worth the physical version that will for a large part go unused.

 

[nothing to see here]

Hrmm, but from what I remember, if we're thinking of the same thread, he wasn't saying that PDFs were doing poorly, but the industry overall? IE games and game aid sales were down.

And is there much of a difference between gamer and gamers who post on message boards? I think we're in a transitional element, and the new gamers just are more accustomed to using the internet and computers as a resource. I think more and more you don't have to be a fanatic to be on a board related to your hobby...

As to your point about message boards...it is an interesting question.

I cannot speak for the RPG marketplace in particular as I lack research specifics. What I can tell you (having seen research for other market sectors) is that as a general rule, those who emerge themselves in non-commercial, public activities dedicated to a particular product or recreation activity are, as a general rule, ultterly non-representative of the marketplace as a whole.

The difference between passive and aggressive information seeking is a big deal in segmenting markets. I would argue that damn near everybody who posts on this board (and certainly all those with postcounts over 100) are aggressive information seekers when it comes to gaming.

To post on a message board (and I include myself here) puts you on a level of engagement far beyond the marketplace as a whole. While this may be mitigated a little by the fact that 'geek' culture seems to be online in higher percentages than society as a whole -- believe me, ENworld is still far from represetnative (though still heck of a place to hang out).*

What does this mean with regards to this disccusion. Whatever it's merits (and count me as someone who would only ever consider purachasing a gaming magazine as a PDF) whether or not Dungeon or Dragone PDF's are popular one these boards, in no way reflects whether it is a smart marketing decision overall.




*There are exceptions to this rule, particular when identifying locuses of influence in a given community. For instance, it could well be that in a given community the most influential 'gamer' in town is the guy who also happens to be a regular at ENWorld...in larger patterns this would provide this website with far more influence than it's participation rate alone would suggest...technical stuff I know, but important all the same.

 

[Glyfair]

And this is what my point is here about thinking PAIZO is losing out to an untapped market, and why I don't think it would undercut their profits.

It's not the untapped market that might "undercut their profits," however. It's the current print customers switching to the PDF model that would be the issue. If that's enough to make publishing Dragon & Dungeon unprofitable than we'll lose the print magazine (at least at an affordable price) and I don't believe Paizo can survive on PDF alone.

Is that the case? I don't know how many will switch and the current profitability of the magazine. Paizo can answer the second, but would still be guessing about the first.

Still, this is mostly a moot point because WotC controls the option. They've told Paizo they can only sell issues of copies that go out of print, so that's what they are stuck with now.