Dragon Bound (Disclaimer: 40 pages long, with subtle balance)

[borble]

Hello I haven't got to read all of this yet but while I agree that dragons are a little to powerful an ally I still wouldn't mind integrating a class that is balanced IMC. For your benefit and those of others I printed your Doc file into a PDF file for ease of use, and portability.

kk, thanks, I will go remove and add this one .

Some suggestions based off of what others have said with a little bit of my own ideas strewn in.

Firstly changes

HD: D6, or D8 (D6 helps the balance more)
Leave BAB, SAVES as is, or lower both Fort, and Will to the Middle progression as found in Wheel of Time.

Middle progression
+1, +2, +2, +2, +3, +3, +4, +4, +4, +5, +5, +6, +6, +6, +7, +7, +8, +8, +8, +9

I have thought of this, but in normal D&D there are no 3/4ths progression and so it doesn’t really work.

Have the sword be a quest, (I.E. something that a Dragon bound must work to get, or learn to make himself). Either that or make it so that is gets only the specific enchantment which comes of being a Dragon Rider.

i have though about this also, but then, that makes the DM need to add a quest, and thats to imposing for most people.

The magic system as written is actually quite balanced.

Thanks, I think I can increase this time to learn a spells true name though, any suggestions?

Rewriting the Dragon (so that is not the same as those of the MM) is recommended. If it is Eragon that you are attempting to quantify in rules, I recommend removing the color based dragon system of the MM (including removing of various breath weapons), Give the new dragons only a few age catagories (though at the top end let them continue to grow in size per every 100 years of life).

id like to keep the dragon as close to the mm as plausible, and I think the cash requirement really balances it out well (not perfect, I still haven’t played the higher levels).

Characteristics of the new dragon
Speed, Fire only breath weapon (dragons of 6-8 months of age and above). Color can be any variation of colors from the MM, or elsewhere. The ability to mutate any material (such as from Earth to Stone, or Stone to Gem) into another material (sandstone to diamond, anybody.)

And Rider, and Dragon should be bound.

I am thinking something along the lines of, -2 int, con, and wis (temp.) when the dragon is knocked out. As well as -10 speed?

I would personally take it a step further, If a Rider dies a dragon dies, if a dragon dies a Rider grows sick and has the potential of dying. Also a Rider whose dragon dies looses all class abilities, but retains class skills (such as knowledge skills). This should help to balance the class a bit.

i already have: your royally screwed if your dragon die's. and I think the rider die's the dragon die's, is good so I will add it.
added: If the Dragon Bound die’s permanently, the dragon die’s within 12 hours.

Except at low levels all you have to do with my suggestion is to use numbers already put in a table by the nice people who wrote the Monster Manual. I can make you a table of the low level stats if you want, that would take about 10 minutes. If anything this makes it easier to use IMO. The good thing is that you have a playable dragon at level 1, instead of having to lug around an egg for the first 5 levels (which I think that many players would find dull and annoying).

i think its fine how it is.

They still have healing, I just bumped the spells a level up as healing should be the primarily be done by Clerics and Paladins. Other classes that do have healing spells, but not as their focus (Druid, Ranger), have the Cure spells moved a level up in a similar way.

once again, i think its fine how it is.

The cash restrictions make it harder to balance the class with other standard D&D classes, so I disagree with reason a. If your stated goal still is for the class to be balanced with the standard classes reason b and c are counterintuitive, the magic items and cash is what many people like about D&D (A notion I dont agree with, but if you want less cash and magic items in the game thats a whole other discussion). As for reason d, aren't the class supposed to be about playing a dragon bound, not about playing a dragon?

I am not being trying to be rude, but I like the cash restriction, it gives it a certain track, a sugary flavor, I could compare it to a lemon drop (lol).

As mentioned by others your custom spells are either a) to good for their level (hair), b) should be items (dragon saddle) or c) overlaps with existing spells (improved mend)

i know, and i moved hair to lvl 3, ill add a lvl restriction on it. i don’t know how to make the saddle (otherwise i would make saddles for each size category, with set prices for easy reference), and as for mend, well i don’t like the original mend.

I haven't really looked much at the feats. Most of them looks allright by first glance. The only one I noticed as problematic was the Human racial one. +2 to all attacks from 1 feat is flat out to strong. The comparison would be weapon focus that grants +1 to attacks with one specific weapon type.

how about i make it a +1, and only when using the riders blade?

You didn't comment on the fact that most here don't think your class is balanced and will be hard to balance as long as it can do so many different things, has the best BAB and a powerful dragon companion.


To keep this discussion meaningful and on track could you state your goals for the class. Is it a pet project seperate from normal D&D rules and balance to match the flavor of some specific novels (which I'm not that familiar with) or are you striving for a class that can be used in standard D&D games without problems?

the latter

thanks all
ben

 

[monboesen]

Ok. You want the class to be balanced and workable with other normal D&D classes. IMO (and as I read it that goes for the majority of repliers) your class as it stands isn't.


It has several problems.

1. Too good at too many things (Full BAB, a very dangerous dragon companion and a great spell list is not balanced). It doesn’t promote team play and can lead to the point where one player gets to much “screen time”. As for the spells, there is a reason paladins and rangers have short spell list with only a few good spells. The spell list also lacks some sort of "theme", for instance a paladins spells list pretty much includes healing, some protection and a little self buffing, a rangers some animal and plant stuff, minor healing and a little selfbuffing. Your spell list looks like a raid down the PHB looking for the best spells.

2. Compared to other classes your class is weak (actually very weak) at low levels, and very strong at high levels (or rather the dragon is very strong). That’s a sign of poor balance that the designers tried to weed out of 3ed (they didn't entirely succeed). Your class needs something more at lower levels and something less at high levels.

3. Even though you like it, removing money and items is a poor way of balancing a class. Money and items are an important part of D&D and it is nearly impossible to compare your class to others if it by design has less wealth, I know you mean the dragon to make up for the lost items, but how do you calculate how many GP the dragon is worth? (I absolutely loathe the D&D reliance on magic items and won’t ever again play by that rule set. But I did try it out thoroughly. With and without standard wealth. Without the game pretty much broke down at level 9+).

4. Random dragon assignment. How is it fun to roll a white dragon for your lawful good dragon bound. You are now stuck with an inherently evil and selfish creature that opposes all your ethics and if it dies you suffer immensely. And even if you are a chaotic evil bastard yourself it still sucks, compared to the guy who by chance got a red dragon and can ride it three levels earlier than you (9th level vs. 12th). To make matters worse his dragon is just better in almost every way possible.



The class most comparable to yours is the ranger. Both has full BAB, a pet (animal companion vs. dragon) and spells.

1. The dragon bound’s pet (dragon) is so much better than the rangers that a comparison is pointless. Advantage dragon bound (by a LOT).

2. The dragon bound’s spell list is far superior to the rangers. Advantage dragon bound (again by a LOT).

3. The ranger has more skill points and a better skill list. But the dragon bound’s dragon excels at many of the skills that the ranger does (perception skills) and is a very competent scout. About even.

4. Both get 1d8 HP. Even

5. Both get 2 good saves. Even

6. The ranger gets some free feats, the dragon bound doesn’t. Advantage ranger.

7. The ranger gets some good, but situational, class abilities. The dragon bound gets good class abilities and a free magic weapon. Advantage dragon bound (but not by much).



As you can probably guess IMO something has to go. It could be the full BAB, it could be a MAJOR toning down of the dragon or it could be a smaller toning down of the dragon and loosing the spells.


This will be my last post on this thread. So good luck with the work.

 

[borble]

ok, id just like to say , that, how i would go about balancing cash, is just to see when the dragon bound out shines (or under shines) other classes, and i was thinking of keeping the spell lvls and just spreading them out through a 16 lvl range instead of 12. that is, moving first down 4 lvls second down 2 and third down 1.

and as for the power of the dragon, no one has proposed to lower the CRing chart, i am fully willing to lower it. it just needs play testing to say when the dragon is to much.

and as for the power of the character, he is just as powerful as a fighter, and has better feats to pick from.

thanks all, please tell me what you think.
ben
EDIT: also, the BAB and spells are balanced (except that i need a viable time about for the spell true name learning), all we are really discussing is the dragon.

 

[borble]

updateded feats revaolving around flight, and reworeded flight dragon ability, and added edip dragon feat.
ben

 

[borble]

changed spell true name to:
To find the Spells True name and essence, the Dragon Bound must study for 30 minutes per spell level (0 level spells are worth 15 minuets), without interruption.

but now it seems a bit to much, but i think now i cxan move the spells down to fist lvl, that way it eraces the weekness at lvls 1-4.
what do you all think?
ben

 

[borble]

updated spell chart and spell true name bonus spell learning stuff.
ben

 

[borble]

changed:
At levels 1, 1, 5, 10, and 16 in this class, the Dragon Bound may roll a number of Knowledge (Dragon) checks equal to his level plus his charisma modifier (at levels 1, and 1 they get +5 more chances, and at level 5 they get +3 more chances). To learn the true name and essence of Dragon Bound spells of the spell level just learned (and only of the level just learned) without spending any time in study. This dose not clog up his 5 chances a day.

to:
At levels 1, 1, 5, 10, and 16 in this class, the Dragon Bound may roll a number of Knowledge (Dragon) checks equal to half his level plus his wisdom modifier (at levels 1, and 1 they get an extra +3 chances, and at level 5 they get an extra +2 chances). To learn the true name and essence of Dragon Bound spells of the spell level just learned (and only of the level just learned) without spending any time in study. This dose not clog up his 5 chances a day.

becuse it was alot of rolls.

also, anyone know how to convert word to pdf?
thanks
ben

 

[borble]

bumpedump
ben

 

[borble]

tick tick tick, bump.
also, i have a few more feats to add soon, but most of my time has been on a few other classes.
thanks
ben