Dragon CR´s too low?

[Durifern]

Dragon CR´s too low?

Next session my group will have an encounter with a juvenile white dragon (CR 5) as a climax in our campaign. I´d rate the group slightly more powerful than a standard 5th level group but still I fear they don´t stand a chance!
The main reason why is that the dragon can make perfect use of hover and the snow will blind them but not him (blindsight).
A medium sized dragon doesn´t do much damage with his attacks but he´s got up to five atacks and good attack modifiers, so he can make use of Power Attack.

What do you think. Are dragon CR´s in general too low, are they OK, or is it only a problem at low levels?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Remember, a dragon's CR generally takes into account two things.

One, they're tough for their CR - 'top of their weight class', so to speak.

Two, it's expected that a party is aware there's a dragon about and have prepared appropriately.

Your dragon might be a tough CR 5 for a party buffed with Cold Resistance, loaded with fire damaging effects, and prepared to deal with a big nasty flying monster. But if it springs an ambush on them with reasonable tactics and terrain that suits it, it will annihilate them.

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

In general, thrown semi-randomly at a party ... dragon CRs shoudl be adjusted upwards by 25% to 50% (the higher the CR already is, the less the "bump" should be, oddly enough).

So, guesstimate your CR5 dragon as CR7 or CR8. As a player, Iw as in a party which ran -- unexpectedly -- into just that, a Juvenile white dragon. One of us died, FIRST ROUND (breath weapons suck when you're maybe 4th level).

However, on the flip side, we hit a Young Adult black dragon one level later, "loaded for bear" as it were -- spell-wrapped to the HILT to be the ABSOLUTE best-prepared we could be for it. The thing ended up, really, something of a pushover (despite the purely coincidental screwage my then-Sorceror got ... my just-gained second Level 2 spell, Melf's Acid Arrow, isn't what anyone would call terribly useful against a BLACK dragon, you see ... ).

So ... be EXTREMELY DAMNED CAREFUL whenever pitting your PCs against a dragon. The encounter will quite likely either be a pushover, or, pose a serious risk of an immediate, why-bother-with-initiative TPK.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

IMO, Dragons CR's are to low. Even prepred, they are extremely difficult to defeat.

 

[Hygric]

After using a few myself, I would say bump the CR by 2 for a dragon to get their real CR.

 

[Allanon]

Dragon CR's don't take into account any DM planning (no encounter does)... So it will all depend on the circumstances you put you're player's in.

In you're example you already provide you're own argument in why it will be more difficult than you want, with the Hover and the snowblindness. So if you want to change that without handing you're player's snowgoggles and magic carpets I'd suggest evening the odds .

Place the encounter in a cramped area in which the dragon's Hover won't be effective, not to cramped ofcourse otherwise noone can take cover from the dragons attacks. Or you could have the combat take place in a blizzard (although this still doesn't counteract the blindsight the dragon has except if you're blindsight rules are based on real world senses like smell and sound ).

The Snowblindness can be counteracted by placing the encounter at dusk or dawn. Or by having a cloudy sky.

Hope this helps.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The Snowblindness can be counteracted by placing the encounter at dusk or dawn. Or by having a cloudy sky.

It's not snowblindness he's talking about, it's the snow kicked up per the description of the Hover feat. It causes a cloud of debris (or snow in this case) that blinds everyone in the AoE.

-Hyp

 

[Bagpuss]

The question is do the party know there is a dragon in the area? As stated the CR assumes that the PC's know they will be facing a dragon and are prepared for it.

After all even a young dragon is a hungry beast and so there will be evidence of it being around. Foreshadow the conflict, with perhaps a odd scale found lying around, a broken tooth, foot print, half eaten animal carcases, spot it flying at a distance, complaints of villages, etc.

 

[Archer]

Dragon CR assume the party is immune to the dragon's breath weapon and fear effects along with having buffs up the wazoo, dragon specific equipment such as dragonbane weapons and plenty of opposite elemental damage that can do double damage.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

It's a good thing a dragon's caster level is usually so much lower than it's CR. Dispel Magic!

Yes, I know this isn't relevant to this particular discussion, but I mentioned it in case people talk about more powerful dragons, that cast Shield and ... grr ... Mirror Image.