Dragon CR´s too low?

[Zad]

One player's opinion here:

Dragon CRs are generally a joke. They are way too low. Saying they're at the top of the weight class is what WoTC has said, but is junk in my opinion. A given CR just isn't that wide to allow for that.

Saying that it assumes the party is prepared for the dragon is also bunk. Friends, that's what the encounter level is about. If the circumstances of the specific encounter give the PC's an edge, lower the EL. If it works against them, raise the EL. But to say that preparation is assumed for a dragon, when it isn't for any other monster in the book, is merely a backfilling of excuses to cover the fact that the dragons are just plain underrated.

The first time we fought a dragon and got book exp for it, it was a total joke. We got more exp by killing orcs leading up to it. The orcs were a reasonable fight, but the dragon nearly killed us. That my friends is just wrong. Big risk should have big rewards.

Dragon CRs are too low.

 

[Pielorinho]

Brief Stats
102 HP; medium size; AC 21; BAB 15; Saves 10/8/8; breath 4d6, DC 18; move 60/fly200/burrow30; s17/D10/C15/I8/W11/Ch8; Fog Cloud 1/day

Weaknesses: cold subtype, stupid.

Tactics they should be using:
1) Resist or Protection from Elements (cold) on everyone. Resist is pretty much good enough -- an average breath will do 14 points of damage on a failed save, and resist will knock out the first 12 of those points. You may want Protection on your weakest members, though.
2) Try to fight it somewhere that it can't kick up a cloud of snow. If that's not possible, if you keep it in the air, you still stand a pretty good chance against it.
3) Fire, Fire, Fire. Load up on alchemist's fires for everyone: the poor bastard's got a touch AC of 10, and everyone should be able to hit that pretty often. Fireball, if anyone has it, will be fantastic against the beast, doing on average 20 or so points of damage per casting.
4) Flying, if available, is very important. Load one or more archers up with a fly spell; their good maneuverability should be able to keep them from enduring a full-round of physical attacks from the dragon. They should be equipped with alchemist's fire, not with arrows -- although the range is much worse, they'll have a far easier time hitting and will do about 14 points of damage per hit.
5) Never engage him in a full-attack. He probably doesn't have improved grab, so he won't be able to grapple them easily. Attack and step back, enduring the AoO. 2 attacks is better than 5.
6) Summoning spells can be awful nice, too. If he comes down to ground level, consider a thoqqua or a fire elemental.

Honestly, I don't think this should be too bad for the group.

That said, dragon CRs are too low IMO. They don't use up 25% of the resources of a group at the same level; rather, a group of the same level that prepares like the dickens for the encounter should be able to kill an appropriately-CRed dragon without any deaths.

Our party fought the same dragon three times. First time, we were way prepared for it at fifth level, and barely managed to drive it off after it knocked a couple of us unconscious. Second time (when we were sixth level), it surprised us, killed two of us, and drove the rest of it away. Third time (when we were seventh level), we spent two hours preparing for the fight, and when the fight came, the dragon died in two rounds.

Preparation is key with dragons. I expect that if the encounter is an adventure's climax, the party should be able to handle it. But be very careful before you let this Int8 creature plan a clever ambush on them.

Daniel

 

[mmu1]

As other have said already, dragon CRs are a joke, and anyone saying that dragons are just "top of the weight class for their CR" seems to be missing the purpose of having a CR rating in the first place. At low to mid levels, I'd say they're at least CR+2, at high levels, when serious spellcasting abilities start to kick in it goes up to at least CR+4, in my opinion.

Oh, and Hover with its attendant cloud of dust is an ability in dire need of revision. It's not a magical ability, so it can't be taken care of with Dispel Magic, and the dragon is able to keep it up constantly and indefinitely (all the while able to use the breath weapon or make melee attacks) making it impossible to disperse with spells like Gust of Wind...

Basically, the amount of concealment it generates and the likelihood that there's enough dust around to even create a meaningful cloud need to be considered very carefully... In this case, there ought to be no way for a young dragon to kick up enough snow to blind the party as surely as if their eyes were covered - at least, there's no way I can visualize that happening, you have better visibility in the worst of blizzards.

 

[Xarlen]

Bah! White dragons are the weakest (poor things; I love 'em). Fighting a dragon in an area it can't fly is a Gimmie. This should be a Hard fight. If it's the climax, then the PCs *should* be near death (A climactic saving via a heal spell is important).

However, some things to keep in mind: The dragon is stupid (sad to say). If one of the PCs tries to distract it, let him. If the dragon is tearing into a PC, and another throws a vile of alchemist's fire along with some obscenities and insults at the dragon, its' going to go after *Them*. It's not the best tactician, so the Snowblindness is about as smart as this one may do. If they can get over that, then good. Perhaps drop a Blindsight scroll onto them before the fight, to get atleast ONE PC working.

Another thing to keep in mind: If the fight looks BAD for the dragon (25-10% hps), have it run. This should give the PCs atleast some point of saving themselves.

Also, the dragon may not want to Kill the PCs one at a time. It may want to 'gloat', or weaken them all so it can eat them alive while they're crippled and defenseless (0-6 HPs), casters and healers aside. So it may just LAY into a PC, put him down low, then go after the others.

 

[dcollins]

I agree with the general concensus that dragon CR's are clearly too low, by about 2 steps (at a minimum).

The argument that "dragon CRs assume the party is prepared for them" is an incredibly uncompelling after-the-fact rationalization by WOTC spokespersons, in my opinion. It's not in any rulebook anywhere, nor does it makes sense for dragon CRs to be measured one way and everything else in some other "assumes PCs unprepared for it" metric. No sale here.

 

[Destil]

Personally, I think the CR was not intended to replace DM judgment. Simply throwing various CR X encounters at a level X party at random was not the intention. If anything, CR and EL are just a better (vs. 2nd or 1st ed.) system of giving out XP, and not a good guideline for judging what to throw at a party. (4 cleric / fighters and 4 wizards would have a very different opinion of the CR of an iron golem...)

Monte Cook had a real nice article along these lines that puts it into words far better than I can:
http://www.montecook.com/dmonly.html

That said, dragons need to be a bit higher, for their shear power alone. The provided CRs don't give parties enough XP for the tremendous challenge of a dragon fight. And the typical (well, for those of us who agree with BADD) dragon encounter should be +2 to +4 EL above the dragon's CR, because of favorable conditions from the dragon's planning.

 

[Durifern]

First of all: thanks for the input. It´s good to know that people here are always able to give some good advice.

Next I have to agree with Zad. Imo CR´s reflect the difficulty of a random encounter without preparation.

I´ll briefly describe the circumstance of teh battle. The dragon is part of an assault on a city. The party accompanied by another army will arrive shortly after the beginning of the battle to defend the city. So there´s no ambush but no opportunity to prepare spells etc. either. The location will be flat snowcovered land nearby a lake.
The fight with the dragon will decide the outcome of the battle. If the dragon dies or flees the city will be saved and the casualties won´t be too severe, if they have to flee the dragon will make havoc of the friendly troops, the attackers will be able to get inside the city and the party has to do some nasty streetfighting the next couple of days. So either way I´m able to get on with the story however I want to give my players a good chance to stand their ground.

Xarlen: Yes, I do plan not to play this dragon particularly intelligent, they will be able to taunt him and if he´s got enough he will flee or he´s mad from all the blood and use his Power Attack to the max (however this can backfire ;D).
I dropped a wand of mirror image, so the wizard and the rogue have better protection.

mmu1: I, too, am thinking that hover is pretty tough. Take a look at the range. 30 ft per age category (that´s a damn lot)! But that´s quite dumb because a juvenile white dragon and a juvenile red dragon afflict the same area although the red dragon is bigger. Size category would be more logical...

 

[Xarlen]

Also, a thought: If you would like to make it a little harder or easier, have the dragon cover the lake with snow, and get the PCs to come onto it, then Shatter the ice.

OR. IF the dragon flees, have it go beneath the frozen lake (Crack a hole in it and dive in). Maybe it can come back later in the fight (After they prepare to deal with it later), or show up in another campaign, or whathaveyou. If it's wounded enough that it can't come back in the fight, this certainly leaves a closure close-up to go hunt the dragon.

 

[Pielorinho]

I dropped a wand of mirror image, so the wizard and the rogue have better protection.

Keep in mind that dragons have blindsight, making visual illusions not terribly effective against them. Unless the dragon is very stupid, it won't be fooled by mirror images.

At the very least, you may want to allow an alchemist in town to have a stash of alchemist's fire: if they don't have time to prepare spells, this battle suddenly becomes much tougher. Do they normally go into combat with fire spells prepared?

Daniel

 

[Durifern]

Keep in mind that dragons have blindsight, making visual illusions not terribly effective against them. Unless the dragon is very stupid, it won't be fooled by mirror images.

Oops, didn´t think of that. Thanks!

Do they normally go into combat with fire spells prepared?

Luckily the wizard´s got lots of fire spells.