Dragon Disciple condensed

[Kaodi]

Hmmm...

Some ideas for a dragon apotheosis class...

d6 HD, 3/4 BAB, Good Fort & Will
Cut Strength boosts down to +4, eliminate breath weapon, blindsight. Knock down wings to gliding only, clumsy maneuverability.
Add fearful presence, add real caster progression, as much as is balanced.

 

[Cameron]

Taking it as a caster is idiotic. Taking it as a barbarian or other melee fighter is very nice, though. Any melee build character can benefit from the strength boost and the high hit die. The strength boost actually offsets the 3/4 BAB and then some, and adds an extra 6 damage per swing, assuming you're going with a two hander (which you should be). With the offset BAB you're looking at a fair boost in damage for a melee fighter. The high HP (+2 per level on a fighter, like taking improved toughness twice), and AC (+4, not shabby at all) are also nice, the wings are decent, the immunities situationally useful, assorted senses very good.

The breath weapon is crap and the bonus spells are useless. Losing either of those would probably not impact the class at all.

It is a good class, trust me on this. Good enough to get banned from several servers on NWN.


EDIT: math error

It is banned in NWN because of the way NWN works. Everything is biased towards melee combatants. It is almost impossible to come up with the 101 tricks that most Wizards can have that virtually ensures a melee artist never reaches them in pnp play. To date, the character that had the easiest time finishing the game is still my TWF Longsword wielding Fighter/RDD.

Using NWN as a basis for power in pnp play is a very bad idea.

The RDD as is is a warrior-type prc. In order to make it more caster friendly, change the extra spell slots to +1 caster arcane level. That should balance things out.

 

[Dagredhel]

Sean K. Reynolds statted up the Half-Dragon template class in a "Savage Progressions" article on the WOTC website.

 

[Brazeku]

It is banned in NWN because of the way NWN works. Everything is biased towards melee combatants. It is almost impossible to come up with the 101 tricks that most Wizards can have that virtually ensures a melee artist never reaches them in pnp play. To date, the character that had the easiest time finishing the game is still my TWF Longsword wielding Fighter/RDD.

Using NWN as a basis for power in pnp play is a very bad idea.

The RDD as is is a warrior-type prc. In order to make it more caster friendly, change the extra spell slots to +1 caster arcane level. That should balance things out.

I'm not using it as a basis for power, I put the math right there. That doesn't change any of the mechanical advantages, I was just using the NW example for frame of reference.

It is good as fighting classes go, I do have experience with it. Wizards at high level get many tricks, it is true (illusion and polymorph and instant-incapacitation effects oh my). I would never say that any core melee class is better than or even equivalent to a caster from levels 10-25 or so. Past that the save DCs start to suck.

Look at it this way:

Class gains improved toughness twice (ie 2 hps per level over a fighter)
Class gets Fly at will as an EX ability (not quite, but close to)
Class gets permanent EX mage armor (slightly better than, actually)
Class gets a double strength bull's strength, permanently, that stacks with all other enhancements
Class gets 2 good saves
Class gets immunity to several effects
Class gets a variety of bonuses to other, less useful stats
Class gets 3 vision modes.

If you saw a prestige class that granted that, wouldn't it look good for a meleer?

I'm not saying wizards aren't awesome. They are, because they can incapacitate an opponent easily in one go. Clerics yet better, due to their enhancements. However, the dragon disciple is a good class in it's niche, and since that's all there really is to go by, a good class by extension.

 

[Kerrick]

Maybe for base classes (Dread Necromancer 20 --> +4 LA Lich), but I figure each level in a prestige class is worth 1.5 to 2 times that of a base class (Walker in the Waster 10 --> +5 LA Dry Lich). *shrug* We should probably just agree to disagree.

True, PrCs are a little more... elite than base classes. +5 LA, though? Wow. 1.5 times I could go with (so a +3 LA), but I still think the half-dragon template is a little too powerful to give to a PC. If it were an epic PrC, sure - have at it. But something that requires you to be L5? Nah.

d6 HD, 3/4 BAB, Good Fort & Will
Cut Strength boosts down to +4, eliminate breath weapon, blindsight. Knock down wings to gliding only, clumsy maneuverability.
Add fearful presence, add real caster progression, as much as is balanced.

I'd agree with most of that. Give them a d8 HD, the +4 Strength, but the breath weapon isn't that big a deal - it doesn't deal a lot of damage, compared to the spells he can cast, and if you reduce it to "usable 3/day" instead of "every 1d4 rounds" it's perfectly fine. Fearful presence is interesting - I assume you're thinking of a bonus to Intimidate checks and not an actual fear aura?

 

[Cameron]

Look at it this way:

Class gains improved toughness twice (ie 2 hps per level over a fighter)
Class gets Fly at will as an EX ability (not quite, but close to)
Class gets permanent EX mage armor (slightly better than, actually)
Class gets a double strength bull's strength, permanently, that stacks with all other enhancements
Class gets 2 good saves
Class gets immunity to several effects
Class gets a variety of bonuses to other, less useful stats
Class gets 3 vision modes.

If you saw a prestige class that granted that, wouldn't it look good for a meleer?

No.

It gets, on average, 1 extra hp per HD (d12 vs d10). It doesn't get the Con boost until character level 13-ish.
Fly with average manoeuvreability is only so-so. Good is when you can Hover. Average means you have to keep moving. No full attacks for you.
Natural AC is way better than Mage Armour. It stacks with all other stuff, for one thing, but you don't get all of it until character level 15 earliest.
You don't get +8 Strength until character level 15 earliest.
Two good saves vs medium BAB.
Immunity to effects, useless stat boosts, vision modes (most of which are character level 15 earliest) vs 5 feats lost.

 

[Brazeku]

No.

It gets, on average, 1 extra hp per HD (d12 vs d10). It doesn't get the Con boost until character level 13-ish.
Fly with average manoeuvreability is only so-so. Good is when you can Hover. Average means you have to keep moving. No full attacks for you.
Natural AC is way better than Mage Armour. It stacks with all other stuff, for one thing, but you don't get all of it until character level 15 earliest.
You don't get +8 Strength until character level 15 earliest.
Two good saves vs medium BAB.
Immunity to effects, useless stat boosts, vision modes (most of which are character level 15 earliest) vs 5 feats lost.

The fact that the increments are gradual isn't saying all that much, that is the case with many PRCs. Exactly what are you weighing this against?

 

[Nifft]

IMX building NPCs with Dragon Disciple levels, their expected damage output is about on-par for their levels. They lose a bit (-3 or -4 BAB), they gain a bit (+8 Strength).

Best use for bonus spells: Paladin or Ranger spells! (e.g.: 9 levels of Paladin, 1 level of Sorcerer, and then 10 levels of Dragon Disciple).

Cheers, -- N

 

[Cameron]

The fact that the increments are gradual isn't saying all that much, that is the case with many PRCs. Exactly what are you weighing this against?

Nothing. I am just saying that his way of looking at only the strengths of the prc without looking at its drawbacks and then saying that it is "overpowered" is disingenuous. He also tried to push that viewpoint by stating the NWN server thing, which is, of course, a red herring since that game very obviously favours melee combatants over any other archetype, but that failed.

What I am saying, and a lot of people are saying, is that the DD prc is not overpowered. I'd rather take the 3 LA hit than be a DD.

 

[Brazeku]

Nothing. I am just saying that his way of looking at only the strengths of the prc without looking at its drawbacks and then saying that it is "overpowered" is disingenuous. He also tried to push that viewpoint by stating the NWN server thing, which is, of course, a red herring since that game very obviously favours melee combatants over any other archetype, but that failed.

What I am saying, and a lot of people are saying, is that the DD prc is not overpowered. I'd rather take the 3 LA hit than be a DD.

I never said it was overpowered. Never once.