Dragon Disciple condensed

[Brazeku]

And to clarify:

The reason I made the first post was because I saw people assessing the DD based upon its effectiveness for casters. Hence my opening statement "taking DD as a caster is idiotic." Because it is. Then I pointed out the advantages for meleers. This is why I thought it was fair to highlight the power of the class on NWN- because I wanted to illustrate the melee advantages of the class, by showing it in a context where it would shine.

I think we got our wires crossed here somehow.

 

[Cameron]

I never said it was overpowered. Never once.

Saying that it was banned from servers pretty much says that, in my mind. Let me repeat: *In my mind*.

 

[Brazeku]

Saying that it was banned from servers pretty much says that, in my mind. Let me repeat: *In my mind*.

Oh I see. Yeah, it could be taken that way. Just to straighten things out then: I don't think it's overpowered, I think it's useful for meleers. I was just using the NWN example for a context in which its melee abilities would show, not to try and imply that it should be banned in PnP. Sorry bout that.

 

[Cameron]

Oh I see. Yeah, it could be taken that way. Just to straighten things out then: I don't think it's overpowered, I think it's useful for meleers. I was just using the NWN example for a context in which its melee abilities would show, not to try and imply that it should be banned in PnP. Sorry bout that.

It is more fun if you consider this:

Start off with a Half-Celestial Template. Then take 5 levels of Duskblade/Hexblade, then branch into DD. You end up with *both* templates. The best part is that your BAB doesn't stop at ECL 20, it stops at character level 20, which means that you still can get up to 4 attacks a round post-Epic.

 

[iceifur]

What I am saying, and a lot of people are saying, is that the DD prc is not overpowered. I'd rather take the 3 LA hit than be a DD.

Agreed on both accounts; however, the problem that seems to be popping up is not so much one of prestige class balance, but one of template balance.

Basically, the question becomes, "Is the half-dragon template balanced at its current LA?" (the LA of a template having been previously shown to correspond to the power and length of any related transformational prestige classes). I'm guessing that each person's answer to this question will probably determine whether or not the Dragon Disciple prestige class is their cup of tea.

 

[Kaodi]

I'd agree with most of that. Give them a d8 HD, the +4 Strength, but the breath weapon isn't that big a deal - it doesn't deal a lot of damage, compared to the spells he can cast, and if you reduce it to "usable 3/day" instead of "every 1d4 rounds" it's perfectly fine. Fearful presence is interesting - I assume you're thinking of a bonus to Intimidate checks and not an actual fear aura?

Actually, I did mean it as the ability. When I originally came up with this idea, I took out breath weapon and added frightful presence because I specifically wanted an alternate version of the dragon disciple, that focused on a different aspect of a dragons ability. I think I originally thought of it as the " Dragon Mystic " or something. Anyway, one way to implement the ability would be to give the class the Draconomicon feat " Awaken Frightful Presence " . Normally, you have to have the dragon type to take it, but I being in a class that seeks to emulate a dragon is a good enough reason to award it sooner than the apotheosis stage. The strength of the feat is ordinarily determined by racial HD, but with the class it would be by levels in the class.

 

[Kerrick]

Agreed on both accounts; however, the problem that seems to be popping up is not so much one of prestige class balance, but one of template balance.

I think it's worth LA +3 ... maybe +4. Whether or not a PrC should grant a LA +3 template is up for debate, though. The fact that they have the Dragon Adept in Races of the Dragon means that someone obviously thought it was too good. The link I posted to the epic DD says that they didn't give it any more bonus spells because it was already good enough. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

Actually, I did mean it as the ability. When I originally came up with this idea, I took out breath weapon and added frightful presence because I specifically wanted an alternate version of the dragon disciple, that focused on a different aspect of a dragons ability. I think I originally thought of it as the " Dragon Mystic " or something.

I guess it would depend on what the ability does - radius, effects, and save. Is it like the full dragon's fear aura, where you're panicked or shaken, or is it a lesser aura, where you're just shaken. And what's the area of effect?

 

[Kaodi]

It's essentially identical to a true dragons frightful presence, except that instead of having a radius of 30' x age category, it is 5' x 1/2 racial HD. So, perhaps I would instead say that both racial HD and Dragon Disciple/Mystic levels stacked for the purpose. So, to get the same range as a great wyrm, you'd need a combined total HD + levels of 72. With only 10 levels of the prestige class, it would only be 25' ft. For a caster though, that would be a decent defense against swarming mooks.

 

[Nifft]

IMHO the template is worth LA +3, but like all mid-to-high LA races, you need to be careful that you're making good use of the template's strengths.

I like the Half-Dragon Paragon levels, and consider them a bit of a reward for slogging through all 10 Dragon Disciple levels.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Cameron]

Agreed on both accounts; however, the problem that seems to be popping up is not so much one of prestige class balance, but one of template balance.

Basically, the question becomes, "Is the half-dragon template balanced at its current LA?" (the LA of a template having been previously shown to correspond to the power and length of any related transformational prestige classes). I'm guessing that each person's answer to this question will probably determine whether or not the Dragon Disciple prestige class is their cup of tea.

Melee characters, by their very nature, are not balanced in the grand scheme of things. They are generally exceptionally weak at higher levels, and barely hold their own into mid levels. They have to rely on the spellcasters from getting themselves turned into mindless automatons or just plain killed.

LA favours melee characters over non-melee ones. Even so, it is my opinion that the entire LA thing is flawed. If HD (especially the higher ranking ones like outsider or dragon)+LA is greater than CR, something is wrong. Either the LA is too high (IMO, the Rakhsasha, the Ogre-Mage and the Mindflayer are good examples of this), or the CR is not high enough (most dragons).

Thus, I don't believe that the Half-Dragon template is too powerful. For a +3 LA, it had better be something spectacular. And I believe that the Half-Celestial template is just craptacular to the point of silly.