Dragon/Dungeon cancellation: The industry reacts (New Monte Cook commentary)

[Glyfair]

While I realize that this subject is being done to death, I think having a thread that link to various comments from industry luminaries about the cancellation or just memories of the magazine would be a good resource.

What I have so far:

Shannon Appelcline: Game designer (largely Chaosium and related), RPG.net columnist
Wolfgang Baur: Former Dragon editor, game designer
Mark Clover: Creative Mountain Games
Monte Cook: Game designer of D&D 3E, owner of Malhavoc Press, game designer (Comments buried in thread, along with other insiders such as Sean K. Reynolds). Also, see below. Also, here.
Ryan Dancey: Former brand manager D&D.
Matt Forbeck: Author, game designer
Gary Gygax: You know who he is
Robin Laws: Game designer, WotC and Paizo freelancer
Ari Marmell: Game designer (and EnWorld regular)
Mike Mearls: WotC designer
Frank Mentzer: TSR Alumnus
Erik Mona : Publisher Paizo Publishing
Chris Pramas: (also here), Green Ronin Publishing, former WotC employee
Aaron Williams: Creator of Nodwick also created a Comic Strip about it.

Anyone have any others?

Monte Cook has a comment on his thread that I think is important to keep in mind from all these links. I think they are interesting and give a good view of the variety of opinions out there. However, giving them too much weight would be a mistake.

So to all reading this, please don't give my posts here any special weight, and please don't drag me into any mud-slinging, particularly on forums I don't read (which is to say, pretty much any one other than this one), or in angry emails to other game designers.

Further, please don't use anything I have said as a part of an attack on specific people at WotC (many of whom are my friends) or as a part of a "WotC is evil" campaign. While I've been forthcoming about my opinion that I think this was a mistake and I think it's been mishandled, I don't hate WotC, wish them ill, or anything of the kind.

 

[The Lost Muse]

Thanks for posting all these links.

 

[Riley]

Mike Mearls had a bit to say at:
http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/showthread.php?p=338248#post338248
It's worth a read regarding the (distant) relationship between the creators of D&D and the rest of us. (see below for reproduced text)

Richard Baker had this very brief response to a poster's speculation:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12204101&postcount=32
Edit: Wizards' boards are down for an extended period yet again, so Mr. Baker's brief quote and the message it responded to are reproduced here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3477336#post3477336

 

[FireLance]

Aaron Williams (creator of Nodwick) had the following to say at this link (you may need to scroll down if you are accessing the link after April 2007):

This September, Dragon Magazine is leaving the world of print. As of this posting, that leaves Nodwick as a web-only feature (but I've had some nibbles that might have him in dead-tree format somewhere other than in ps238). I've had my work published in Dragon since issue #150, and it's been one of the best experiences I could ask for. From the beginning, the editors were amazing with their feedback, especially when one art director (who shall remain nameless, for his own safety) sent my cartoons back with these post-it notes attached. The notes contained the responses of the other ed's concerning what they liked or didn't like about the 'toon (apparently, cartoons were sent around the office for review at the time). I still have them somewhere. Perhaps they need to go in the back of a future collection?

Nodwick got his start in Dragon #246, and his popularity there allowed me to take the leap into comic books and other art projects. For that, I am eternally grateful. Without the comic-buying fans who saw Nodwick in Dragon, I don't think I would have been able to support myself, let alone have the wherewithal to create my other comic projects. I'm sure Dragon (and Dungeon) magazines will have a larger web presence, which makes sense in this era of the PDF. I'm not sure if they're going to include comics or not, but if they need a henchman for some packet-moving in their server room, I've got a candidate handy...

 

[Glyfair]

As of this posting, that leaves Nodwick as a web-only feature (but I've had some nibbles that might have him in dead-tree format somewhere other than in ps238).

Does this mean the comic has been canceled? It's been on my comic book subscription list for a while, but like all but one RPG comic, it was always hit and miss. However, I didn't realize it was gone.

 

[D.Shaffer]

Does this mean the comic has been canceled? It's been on my comic book subscription list for a while, but like all but one RPG comic, it was always hit and miss. However, I didn't realize it was gone.

Not cancelled. He ended it when the last arc ended. He's concentrating on his other comic now.

 

[Thurbane]

Gary Gygax has also commented, I'll se if I can find the link...

 

[Riley]

I guess you need to be registered to read Mike Mearls' post (http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/showthread.php?p=338248#post338248), so I've pasted it here to save you some time:

Hey, Mike, hope things are going well over in Renton. Anything you feel like sharing?

(For what it's worth, I'm sad the magazines are going but determinedly optimistic about the future of Wizards of the Coast's thing.)

I honestly don't know any of the specifics, or at least the ones relevant to what happened with the magazines. I don't know which WotC staffers are talking to Morrus. Even if I wanted to wade into any of the threads, there really isn't much I can say, both from a practical end (I simply don't know much about this particular issue; I'm not working on it and haven't made it a point to stick my nose into it) to a realistic one (NDAs and what not).

I think that, ironically enough considering the digital initiative, the reaction stems from our distant relationship with the fans. Compared to Magic, D&D staff has little direct dialog or contact with fans. The MTG site has lots of weekly articles from R&D about the game, and discussion of where it is and where it's going is common there. The Magic guys also get to go to pro tours every year. For D&D R&D, there's GenCon and D&D XP, and it's really hit or miss on whether you get to go to those. There's much more of a dialogue on the Magic side of things, and it shows.

I sometimes wonder if it is simply the nature of the games. People play Magic to win tournaments. I don't think they have as much a nostalgia tie to older cards and rules. A player might have a tie to a larger aspect of the game ("I like blue, and if it's weak in the next set I'm unhappy"), but in the end he justs wants to win games and tournaments. D&D players might be a lot more likely to have deep emotional ties to whatever products first got them into the game, because the game lacks that practical angle.

To be blunt, I think there's a sort of script here that has to be worked out before anything constructive can happen.

1. People overreact in a way that is only possible in a culture that so thoroughly disconnects people from hunger, violence, and real survival issues. I mean, when someone posts that losing Dragon is like being raped, I guess I choose to be happy that we're all well fed and safe enough to see that as an issue on the rape level, and that rape (for most people) has become more of a vague concept or plot point in a TV show than a reality. The alternative is to pretty much give up on western civilization, because consumer impulses have taken on a sickening life of their own.

2. People who used to work at WotC trot out their pet theories as to why anything happens here. ("You see, WotC would slip $100 bills into every copy of the PH only if D&D sales were falling.")

3. A few smartasses poke the people in group 1 because, hey, this is still the Internet.

4. A lot of sane people, the staggering majority of fans, either stop reading or make a few cogent comments and then duck out. These people are probably mad or sad that the magazines are gone, but a dialog with them is pretty much impossible with the "rape" victims hanging around, waiting to shriek about the cruel injustices of a hard world.

WotC isn't so dumb as to think that no one would care that Dragon and Dungeon were going away. If anything, the opposite is true. Everyone pretty much expected Scott Rouse et al to be burned in effigy.

Like I said above, I think the big issue for me is that it makes clear the gap between D&D R&D and gamers. It's a bridgeable gap, as Magic shows us, and it's something that should be changed. Interestingly enough, I think that what happened Thursday might end up being a big step toward solving that.

 

[mhensley]

Chris Pramas FTW-

"D&D today just doesn't seem like the same game that captured my imagination when I was 10 years old and under its current custodians I don't see that changing."

 

[Riley]

Gary Gygax's comments on the near-demise of Dragon in the 80's are here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3471749#post3471749

His comments on the current events follow further down the page, but can be summarized as:

Although I seldom do, on occasion I manage to follow Thumper's (or was it FLower's?)advice: "Of you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."