Dragon Editorial: Fearless

[hong]

I'm rubber and you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.

Primal does this better than you.

 

[Celebrim]

Primal does this better than you.

You've used that line before. And it was wrong then too.

Another wrong guess and you'll have a complete hangman, hong man.

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

Sorry, but that sounds like sour grapes from someone who wanted to be a writer. Don't diminish other's achievements. Back when I was in college, I churned out a 20-page essay in a single day, and I'm far from being a professional writer. However, if I did that every day, I'd be able to produce a 6000 page manuscript in a single year. A thousand-page book is hardly beyond comprehension. And Jordan usually took 2 years...

So, do you have any proof for your claim? Or are you just making baseless accusations?

Baseless accusations? I like your ad hominem attacks on me, I guess those don't count as baseless accusations in your book. But it just shows your caliber quite clearly.

As a matter of fact, I AM a writer -- I've been published. Ever matched that, Mr. Snow? Two of my stories have been published on the BattleCorps science fiction site, at what is generally considered to be a low-end professional rate of 4 cents per word. My third story is currently being reviewed for publication.

And I also wrote -- completely singlehandedly -- a complete 160,000+ word campaign setting for the 3.0 OGL. Go to Amazon.com, search for "Acrohelion." That's mine, jacko. Hell, I'll even send you an autographed copy of it, if you PM me your address. It certainly didn't make the best-seller list, but it definitely shows that I know what I'm talking about more than someone whose life accomplishment in the literary field is, by their own admission, one 20-page paper.

Nor do I consider stating that these writers who churn out endless copy with seemingly only a few months pause to be "sour grapes" or a "baseless accusation."

I did not state that this was negative.

Did you know that most of the famous Renaissance artists had large groups of apprentices/hirelings who did most of the painting for them after they sketched the painting, and then came in to put in the finishing details?

It's not something I would do, but if someone puts out a 30-book series in 10 years, I'm kind of inclined to think that they're not spending every waking moment slaving over a typewriter. Not if they've got millions of dollars, which they do. I don't care if they do. Go ahead. No skin off my nose.

But, I'm not going to take your pointless, holier-than-thou sneers for no reason. Those scientists were right when they described Internet message boards as "jousting with midgets."

So take your baseless accusations and stuff them.

 

[Rel]

Ok, let's back down on the snark and let's drop the business about Robert Jordan entirely.

 

[Lord Kyle Windsor]

They sold hundreds of thousands of copies of 3e. And *millions* of copies of 1e, when you rolled for hit points at first level and were often killed by small weasels.

What do books sales have to do with anything? Most of the peeps I game with purchased two or three copies of the 1st Edition PHB and DMG, not to mention multiple copies of the Monster Manual and various other books. I wonder what those sales would have been like if prices were comparable to the 3E prices (back in the 80s I could pick up a PHB for $9.95 at Play Co.), or if all of the 1E product were easily available to anybody with a computer...

 

[Lizard]

What do books sales have to do with anything?

The original argument was "4e is a mass market game, so it has to be easy! People won't buy a game that's hard!"

My reply:"1e AD&D was hard, and was more 'mass market' than any other RPG, except (perhaps) 3e, which was also pretty hard." THAT'S why book sales matter. Because we're discussing book sales. When discussing apples, apples matter.

BTW, use Mr. Inflation Calculator to see what that PHB costs you in 2008 dollars. THEN figure in the page count of the 3.5 PHB, the fact it's in full color, and tell me if the 1e one was cheaper...

Never mind. I'll do it for you.

9.95 in 1978 (when I bought my PHB for 9.95) is 33.68 in 2007 dollars.

The 1e PHB was 128 pages in black and white (and crappy art). For almost 34.00 in modern money.
The 3.5 PHB is 316 pages in full color (and good art). For 29.95 in 2007 dollars.

 

[Lord Kyle Windsor]

The original argument was "4e is a mass market game, so it has to be easy! People won't buy a game that's hard!"

My reply:"1e AD&D was hard, and was more 'mass market' than any other RPG, except (perhaps) 3e, which was also pretty hard." THAT'S why book sales matter. Because we're discussing book sales. When discussing apples, apples matter.

BTW, use Mr. Inflation Calculator to see what that PHB costs you in 2008 dollars. THEN figure in the page count of the 3.5 PHB, the fact it's in full color, and tell me if the 1e one was cheaper...

Never mind. I'll do it for you.

9.95 in 1978 (when I bought my PHB for 9.95) is 33.68 in 2007 dollars.

The 1e PHB was 128 pages in black and white (and crappy art). For almost 34.00 in modern money.
The 3.5 PHB is 316 pages in full color (and good art). For 29.95 in 2007 dollars.

Got it. Think I skipped a page in there. Probably shouldn't post while on the phone. Haha.

Truth is, I don't care about what the cost is if you factor in inflation, or what the cost is per page. What I know is that when I was ten years old and wanted to go buy a copy of Unearthed Arcana, I had zero problem saving up ten bucks for it. And I know my friends had little problem getting a hold of books for whatever game we were playing -- Boot Hill, Top Secret, Gamma World, whatever. And I'm also quite certain that a kid who wanted to pick up a D&D books would have a much easier time selling their parent on a book for $9.95 than they would a book for $24.95 or whatever the current books are going for.

 

[Lizard]

Truth is, I don't care about what the cost is if you factor in inflation, or what the cost is per page. What I know is that when I was ten years old and wanted to go buy a copy of Unearthed Arcana, I had zero problem saving up ten bucks for it. And I know my friends had little problem getting a hold of books for whatever game we were playing -- Boot Hill, Top Secret, Gamma World, whatever. And I'm also quite certain that a kid who wanted to pick up a D&D books would have a much easier time selling their parent on a book for $9.95 than they would a book for $24.95 or whatever the current books are going for.

Given that kids today have no trouble buying 50 dollar video games, I don't see it. A movie ticket, popcorn, and soda can easily come to 20 dollars -- for 2 hours entertainment. Spending nine dollars more to buy a book which can provide years of play? A no-brainer.

It's rather illogical to suggest that, if 9.95 had the buying power in the late 1970s that 30 dollars does now, that it would be harder now to aquire the same amount of actual money. (i.e, 33 dollars). If your parents were willing to give you ten dollars in 1980, they should be willing to give you 30 dollars now, since it's the same amount of money in buying power, and that's all that matters. Sure, if the books cost 9.95 in modern dollars, it would be much easier, since that's $2.94 in 1978 dollars. It would also mean the publisher was out of business, since such a book would sell at a huge loss.

If you think you can profitably produce a book like the PHB and sell it for 9.95, go right ahead. The SRD is out there for you.

 

[Aus_Snow]

If you think you can profitably produce a book like the PHB and sell it for 9.95, go right ahead. The SRD is out there for you.

Savage Worlds, Explorer's Edition?

 

[SSquirrel]

*shrugs* everybody's got a different style. I thought Grim & Gritty lowered the power curve too much. I don't play D&D for "realism" I like the existing powercurve even at higher levels, I just mix things up in a more sandbox style. My settings and campaigns tend to have a RIFTSish OOT danger level than a Middle Earth of DaleyDale style.

Agreed hordes of enemies rock, I just don't like the way 4e is redesigning monsters and if I don't have trouble with it now why switch?

At least it would be RIFTS using a better system* heh. 3E in the upper levels just got plain warped and the Epic Level Handbook was something I was glad a friend bought before I looked at it and decided not to. If they can manage to make the math work so instead of a sweet spot of L5-13 or whatever and the rest of the game gets thrown off, that would be worth it IMO. By all means tho, if the current system does everything you need run w/it

It wasn't so much the realism factor of GnGR, it does add the "anyone has a chance of killing anyone" factor that some people really wish was in D&D and just plain isn't. Rolemaster you can be a L10 guy in full plate, awesome gear and a L1 Orc w/a lucky top rolling set of dice could kill you w/one lucky as hell swing. Some argue that it makes the game feel less heroic b/c anything could potentially kill you (even if it isn't very likely), and I can understand that, but it was also just a different idea at the time and something I found neat. I was getting bored w/the core game and reading other systems like Arcana Unearthed (later Evolved) more.

Anything that gives you a jolt in the arm and makes you want to roll up a character is a good thing IMO.


*For those playing at home, yes I know it is a RIFTish "feel" not actually RIFTS using D&D.