Dragon magazine is considered official!

[Desdichado]

Yep, definitely bad policy... but man, I love those threads! It gives me a chance, from the comfort of my office, to point and laugh at the different groups out there and exclaim that I'm glad it's not me. (And also to be amused at the shock of some posters as they suddenly realize that there aren't as "many" like them as they seem to think there are.)

I'm a sick puppy.

On a positive note, it helps open my eyes to the many different playing styles and group dynamics out there. Very interesting, in a strange academic sort of way.

I have to admit, I have a somewhat Pyrrhic fascination with them myself, and for the same reasons.

 

[Arnwyn]

Out of the blue? Yup. Would your DM object if you suddenly said, "Oh, the Feat I just took makes me immune to magic."

That's why you have a policy as to what books your group allows or not. We know what you mean, ryard, and I don't think you'll find much disagreement from us (well, this is a messageboard, so there'll always be someone who disagrees). You guys have chosen to allow only "official" material in your game. Fair enough.

The problem with your group (or greymarch) is that you have neglected to actually define what "official" means! Now greymarch seems to be having a difficult time reconciling how to apply this rather nebulous and vague policy to your game (Dragon is official! But it's unbalanced! But it's official! But it's unbalanced!). Your "tight ship", as he calls it, has now become significantly looser than some groups who use 3rd party products and have instituted a clear policy as to what books are allowable.

Good luck reconciling your policy - without a clearer definition, it's my guess confusion might reign for a bit.

 

[ryard]

A big disconnect, it seems, is that the replies to this thread feature many, many folks saying that "official" has nothing to do with "good" or "balanced" and yet, that seems to be a big part of my greymunch and ryard are concerned about it.

I'm sorry..."greymunch?" Jesus. Yeah, the irony of a person complaining about a lack of healthy discourse calling another names...

Anyway.

That disconnect has yet to be unaddressed; they haven't provided any logical basis for why official matters, because the reason they do seem to be providing is faulty in terms of what it actually provides. Much of the "official" material is downright bad from a "balance" or "fair" perspective, whereas much unofficial material is head and shoulders above Wizards of the Coast and what they've provided. This has been pointed out many times here and on the Wizards boards, and yet greymarch and ryard are content to blithely cover their ears and say "I'm not listening!" and then turn around and wonder why no one agrees with them.

I'm glad you can discern my motivations from my, let's count it, ONE post and IN that one post I say that I've been trying for years to use third party sources. I think we all know who is REALLY not listening. But thanks for playing. I WILL stop listening to you now.

 

[ryard]

That's about as far from what I percieve a RPG as as you can get. The DM is in the business of crafting worlds. It very much is his place to say what is or is not appropriate for his campaign!

Point taken, FOR YOUR CAMPAIGN. End of discussion there.

How can the DM 'pull' something from a third party source, I don't get that. What about the time honored tradition of just making stuff up? Does every effect have to come from a spell somewhere, or can you just handwave that the Dark Knight cannot be harmed until his Golden Helm is destroyed?

Well, I don't "get" how you don't get that. DM finds something he likes, then throws it at the PCs.

As far as third party material goes, my rule is anything outside the core has to be ran by me first. Every feat, every spell, I'll let you know if they're okay. trusting to 'official' to keep things balanced is way out there. IIRC, with the exception of the 3.0 PHB, the stuff from Sword and Sorcery is more heavily playtested than the stuff from WotC. The idea that wizards stuff is always better is simply incorrect.

I can't speak to that, but I do refer you to my earlier post on consistency.

And what exactly does official mean? To mean it means nothing, or 'what the DM says is okay to use in his game.' Baraendur, I'd like to second psion's question. When you say "dragon is official", what does that mean?

I do think Greymarch has made this clear...Wizards-produced material.

 

[ryard]

arnwyn: it could also be that greymarch isn't getting an answer because he didn't actually ask a question. He made a statement -- some guy at Wizards (Hi, Darrin) said that Dragon was official, and he wants to spread the word. greymarch made the erroneous assumption that we cared about that. The questions have been after his initial post, from folks who've essentially said "so what?" and "who cares?" I guess greymarch isn't really obligated to answer that if he doesn't want to.

Granted...Greymarch really just wanted people to know...and for a group of people who don't CARE...100-some posts and counting?!?

 

[Desdichado]

I'm sorry..."greymunch?" Jesus. Yeah, the irony of a person complaining about a lack of healthy discourse calling another names...

Anyway.

Dude... that's a typo. Whatever

I'm glad you can discern my motivations from my, let's count it, ONE post and IN that one post I say that I've been trying for years to use third party sources. I think we all know who is REALLY not listening. But thanks for playing. I WILL stop listening to you now.

You haven't said enough for me to listen to yet. greymarch, on the other hand, has been very clear about what he wants, both here and in the other threads on the Wizards boards. If you and greymarch on at odds on this, then I'm wrong, but lacking any other information, I made a quick assumption and ran with it. If it makes you feel any better, I can edit out the "and ryard" from that post, but it won't really change anything else I said.

 

[ryard]

Which leads me to wonder (perhaps somewhat cynically) if this whole thing isn't just some stunt to develop a case for greymarch to get his way with his gaming group. In general asking here for ratification of something you want to do in your gaming group seems a bad policy all around. Either do something or don't; don't air your dirty laundry on the message boards in the hope of some kind of affirmation. And once the group makes a decision about something, it's even worse to come and gripe about it here; just accept it and move on.

Of course, I could be reading way too much into this...

You are. He called me the minute he got the e-mail asking me to read through all my Dragons to find stuff to use. Which is what I've been trying to do for ages.

 

[ST]

Granted...Greymarch really just wanted people to know...and for a group of people who don't CARE...100-some posts and counting?!?

It's because, and no offense intended, you and Greymarch come across as an archaeological find -- a group of gamers who are intensely Gamist, and have an old-school "Players against the DM" mindset. As such, you're treated like a museum exhibit to poke and prod.

I don't feel that way, but if you reread the posts with that in mind, I think you'll understand where they're coming from.

As for you guys, if you're getting enjoyment out of a Gamist environment that uses a strict set of rules, go to it. It's not my preference, but I can see the enjoyment of it. I just can't see why an email from a customer service representative should decide what goes into your game, rather than a dialogue between the players and DM.

 

[ryard]

But that's half the fun! I throw new critters at my PCs all the time. It's fun to see how they handle something they have never encountered before; something they have to investigate, as all those hours they spent memorizing the MM have just proven futile.

Bet you follow the MM rules for making the critters though, don't you.

In any case, we are able to differentiate between player knowledge and character knowledge.

 

[Desdichado]

You are. He called me the minute he got the e-mail asking me to read through all my Dragons to find stuff to use. Which is what I've been trying to do for ages.

That is surprising, especially given his many posts on the Wizards' board threads.