Dragon Mountain defeated without even entering it!

[reapersaurus]

I'm sorry if you felt that I was flaming you.
I was trying to ask you pointed questions and give you my impressions of the way you handled the dragon encounter.

The paladin did not chase etheral creatures. If you read the filcher's description, they can only stay ethereal for one round at a time. That means you can chase them if you go when they reappear.

I have looked for rulings on this, since the wording is not clear in the MM:
Is the Filcher required to come back to the material plane after one round, or CAN it?
It seems strange that it could "lurk there, waiting for a mark" if it had to come back every round. The ethereal marauder has no such mention.
I'm thinking of many scenarios where the filcher could go someplace the paladin couldn't... like down.

I'm thinking that creatures should be played to their intelligence scores, their wisdom scores, and their personalities.

I applaud your desire to have your creatures role-play properly, but i think it's kind of a cop-out to say he'd be suicidally overconfidant just because he's a red dragon.
If red dragons REALLY were that badly overconfident, in the face of obvious danger, how would any of them survive?

An important point for roleplaying purposes is that even a juvenile red dragon has 14 INT and 15 WIS.
I think that qualifies as a creature that should NOT act the way you had it act, but that's just my impression.
You're the DM.

Pielorinho makes the same point i was going to:
that there's no way that adding 10 levels of wizard to a dragon increases the CR by 10.
Good example!

 

[HeavyG]

Pielorinho makes the same point i was going to:
that there's no way that adding 10 levels of wizard to a dragon increases the CR by 10.
Good example!

I agree. CRs and levels don't mix.

 

[Berandor]

I treat such cases as seperate critters.

So a Dragon CR10 wizard 10 would be like CR 10 + CR 10 = EL12.
Yes, a creature can be its own Encounter Level

Berandor

 

[Henry]

Y'know, I can't help but wonder if the wording on the Ethereal Filcher is accidentally reversed. The whole description would make more sense if it were:

"The Ethereal filcher can remain on the material plane for 1 round before returning to the Ethereal."

Can you imagine something lurking if it can only remain unseen for one round at a time, and possessing NO hide and move silently skills?

 

[HeavyG]

I treat such cases as seperate critters.

So a Dragon CR10 wizard 10 would be like CR 10 + CR 10 = EL12.
Yes, a creature can be its own Encounter Level

That's actually a very good idea.

 

[reapersaurus]

Y'know, I can't help but wonder if the wording on the Ethereal Filcher is accidentally reversed. The whole description would make more sense if it were:

"The Ethereal filcher can remain on the material plane for 1 round before returning to the Ethereal."

Can you imagine something lurking if it can only remain unseen for one round at a time, and possessing NO hide and move silently skills?

Ya, there's something really strange about that monster's description...

Why would there be any limitation to the movement, if they are EXPERTS at it?
I don't see that mention in the ethereal marauder description - am I missing it?
They both should have the exact same ability, methinks.

To me, the ethereal filcher simply seems to me to be a mechanic for allowing the DM to take items that he doesn't think his players should have.

Once a filcher gets an object, unless they stop him before he goes ethereal, (the way i read it) there's no way to get the thing back.

 

[Carnifex]

even though they have the same CR, does anyone really think that a young adult green w/ 10 wizard levels (CR20) is equivalent to a very old red dragon (CR20)?

That's why, when I make dragon spellcasters, I'll usually give them levels in sorceror instead, and rule that their sorceror levels stack with their innate sorceror levels. It brings them to a more suitable dangerousness for their CR to be justified.

 

[James McMurray]

Pielorinho:

Good comparison. Where were you before I awarded experience? Unfortunately, I just don't have the time to do that sort of in-depth CR comparisons when designing encounters and awarding xp.

As for Reaper learning manners? I won't hold my breath

Zelda:

Excellent points. I would also like to suggest that Rolemaster may be the right game for them. Dragons in RM are extremely deadly, and are nearly impossible to beat, even if the DM plays them incredibly poorly and the players are tactical geniuses.

Kesh:

I definitely agree that characters whould have a chance of failure. A well-executed plan that works is nowhere near as satisfying if it works because the DM pulls random modifiers out of his butt.

Reapersaurus:

When you called the battle pathetic, you weren't intentionally trying to raise my hackles up just a bit? If that's true, you may need to get a book of etiquette somewhere so you don't make faux pas like that again.

I have looked for rulings on this, since the wording is not clear in the MM:
Is the Filcher required to come back to the material plane after one round, or CAN it?

What's uncear about the line "It can remain on the ethereal plane for one round before returning to the material plane."? Seems pretty clear to me.

i think it's kind of a cop-out to say he'd be suicidally overconfidant just because he's a red dragon.

When did I say that? I've been looking back over my posts and I never once said that. I explained the reasons he would be over-confidant, but never once did I say that it was because he was a dragon. In fact, the way his life went would have made anyone one of two things: paralyzed by insecurity, or vastly over-confident.

As for the mental stats of average red dragons, he was far from average in the stat area. His strength and con had been lowered by the physical abuse suffered when they shredded his wings and muscles, yanked his teeth, etc. His wisom had also been decreased by the psuchological torture involved in that. Finally, his intelligence had been incresed by the ability to persuse the wizard's library for some good old-fashioned book-learnin'.

Also, why do you insist on comparing Marauders and filchers? If they were the same ability, they'd be worded the same. If there one thing 3e is good at, its redundant wording. Heck, looking at their pictures, they're not even related to one another.

Carnifex: Sounds good to me. However, it totally would not have fit this dragon's background. The wizard levels made perfect sense.

 

[James McMurray]

Heavy G: I agree too, however, its a bit late for that now. I'll just have to keep a closer eye on things in the future.

Berandor: That seems pretty good, but what if you have a monster that's CR14 due to its great physical capabilities, and you then add 6 levels of fighter to it. By your method its CR wouldn't increse at all. Sounds like a good start for a system, but it still needs more work.

Henry: That may be the case. However, I didn't read it that way on my pass through the description. Sounds like a mail to the Sage may be in order. Anyone care to give it a try? I've emailed him questions in the past and never heard back from him, so maybe he's got me on his block list.

 

[James McMurray]

No! My thread will never die!!!

In other words... bump