Dragon No. 319 arrived today

[Thaumaturge]

I loved 2e Dark Sun and I belive this recreation is much better than that at athas.org. One thing I truly enjoy is defiling is actually tempting now. I can maximize a fireball just this once and get 1 measley delifing point? That is the first step down a dark path and I like it.

On the one hand, I was slightly upset at the bard not being converted, but I understand space contraints. On the other hand, I feel paladins can exist in Dark Sun, but I DARE one of my players to attempt it. I feel sorcerers fit perfectly into Dark Sun. With no real schools of wizardry since Rajaat and the Dragon-Kings 'tweaking' different races it just makes sense that eventually sorcerers would occur. Though I am sure the D-Ks wish they could put that genie back in the bottle. I enjoy the bit about clerics of elements being a bit ... off, because of their initiation rituals.

The races? I felt the ECL +1 or 2 for each race was good. In particular I felt elves were well done with bonuses to base speed and endurance for free. Muls continue to be a dwarf/human hybrid, but better than both. I would have prefered SOME mention of Dregoth's dray, but I will simply give some humans the 1/2 Dragon template and call it a day.

I do think it should have been spelled out a bit more clearly that in Dark Sun 4th lvl is the starting point, but that is really a nit pick; Cerulian (sp?) storms should have been more than hinted at as well or just not mentioned.

Overall it has warmed the cockels of my heart and made me start dreaming up all new schemes for Urik to wrest the iron mines from the pitiful 'Free' city of Tyr.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Arnwyn]

Thank God for more prestige classes. I was running out.

I know, me too. (For Dragon, it seems like if all else fails, slap in another PrC or three, hmmm? :/ )

 

[Vocenoctum]

The new Dark Sun section is sort of a mini players guide. They talk about the basics of playing a Dark Sun campaign using the PHB races and classes and then add notes on how Dark Sun clerics differ from regular clerics etc.

In my opinion it completely sucked. And the reason it sucked is because all of the classes and races are taken directly out of the PHB with minimal if any mechanical changes to fit Athas.

The classes are indeed almost completely unmodified. The races I felt were fine. The half-giants are the only one's that are really altered to fit the new edition. IMO.

For example, in classic Dark Sun there are no paladins and Bards do not cast spells, among other things. Well there are paladins now! And Bards cast spells like it was no big deal. Like the world isn't a blasted wasteland from the excesses of rogue wizards.

"Bards" in Athas were completely different, and it would have been nice to have the class representing them present. That said PHB Bards and Paladin's can exist as easily as anything else.
DS was an evolving world, did you complain whenever a new (2e) supplement added a new race or class? So, 300 years later, a apaladin is possible (though, frankly still unlikely, given the setting) and there arose a group of performers that used magic to entertain instead of just being assassins.

Half-Giants are referred to in the Expanded PsiHB so they tell you to look there, but I can tell already that Cordell has done his part in screwing over this Dark Sun fan.

here ya go;
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=3

Half-Giants are only a +1 Level adjustment race. Sorry but, I don't see that as staying true to what half-giants were really like in classic Dark Sun. Half-Giants should have a +8 or +10 to Strength to accurately portray them as they were in the original Dark Sun setting. Somehow, I don't think that is what their strength bonus is going to be.

Sure, but they'd be ECL +5 or so, and useless to most campaigns. I'm not saying that things have to be balanced vs other worlds, but power levels within a world should be comparable.

When they converted Dark Sun over from 2nd Edition, they should have focused on keeping the setting and the feel as intact as possible. Dark Sun was never a balanced setting in the first place. Trying to shoehorn the setting into the Balance Rules All paradigm of 3rd Edition just totally kills the setting. Besides there are other ways to balance Dark Sun versions of the PHB classes or even use Half-Giants at their full potential and still maintain balance in the game. But Noonan didn't want to actually think so he just tossed in everything from the PHB or the new PsiHB whether it belongs on Athas or not.

The problem here is, first off you seem to personally invest too much in the arguement. More than that though, you expected a complete setting? The articles were presented as a mini guide to Athas, something to get folks started and involved in the setting. As well, they couldn't devote the entire magazine to it, simply because not everyone likes DS.

I happened to like most of it, and feel beefing up the PHB races to ECL's was nice and a good way to go. I agree that the classes of DS were too different to easily convert, but the alternative was simply to print all of them.
I didn't care that Paladin's were on Athas, because their possibility doesn't mean suddenly that they're forming up orders and attacking cities. It just means they're possible. I personally wish the Elemental Cleric was given more detail. I find it more offensive that Monk's are in Athas, but that's because I prefer my monks ascetics, not unarmed killing machines. I think Athas NEEDS paladins.

 

[Arani Korden]

But Noonan didn't want to actually think so he just tossed in everything from the PHB or the new PsiHB whether it belongs on Athas or not.

Actually . . .

 

[reiella]

300 years after the events of Prism Pentad, I can see Paladins about.

Especially with the emergence of Free Cities.

Making a non-spellcasting bard variant for DS may have been a 'better' idea, if not for the issue of space. Especially given that Defiling magic is detailed in another issue.

There's some trouble with making a Half-Giant that's "true" to Athas and somehow balanced. If you want a character that's reasonably balanced, but not having some huge LA, it's going to sting, quite a bit. I'd reiterate a bit on some of DS issue however. Half Giants still only had a +4 str relative to Humans, it just so happened that the stat range was 4-20 instead of 3-18...

Speaking of which, does the DS Player's Guide present a different/alternate char gen method/guideline set to reflect a different stat range?

 

[Henry]

I have not yet seen it, so the only part I can comment on is the unbalanced nature of 2E Dark Sun.

A 2E to 3E conversion I feel would already have a balancing mechanic in it: in the older versions you HAD to start out 3rd level; the world was just too dangerous otherwise! This two-level gap would have added plenty of wiggle-room for LA+1 or LA+2 classes. Half-giants with strength scores less than 20, and the inclusion of paladins just DO NOT evoke a feel of Dark Sun to me.

The question that Kamaikaze Midget posed was "why no paladins?" the answer to me is that there was no room in the setting for an idealistic character-type such as the paladin. Dark Sun was more of a setting full of Anti-heroes than heroes; these were men and women and beasts who valued survival more than personal honor or altruism. The breed of hero who sacrificed his last drink of water to a dying slave died themselves generations ago, survived by those who gave up idealism for just carving out a place for themselves. Paladins in Athas are as antithetical to the setting premise as having a successful Jedi Academy in the Rebellion Era in Star Wars. The biggest heroes in the published novels were a half-breed gladiator / failed general who thought as much of himself as his men, a human Psionic Noble who died an ignoble death, and a Sorceress who ultimately did the right thing, but gained lots of power as a side result.

Bards with no magic? Can't help anyone there - I didn't see the Dark Sun Bard's presence as hinging on lack of magic - though they among all others would have needed most to hide their talents from the public. Bards in Dark Sun would have just as well been served by the Rogue Class, since their skills lay around poisoning, gathering info, and deceit.

Clerics had no access to resurrection in Dark Sun - it's why everyone had backup characters AS A RULES MECHANIC. Having suitable weapons and armor was not a certainty - a 20 strength is not as useful if you aren't a monk and have no weapons.

So there are LOTS of changes to the world, but they weren't for change's sake, they all reinforced the apocalyptic style of the world. To include paladins with noble ideas is to presume that there is enough food, shelter, and water to let someone pursue altruistic goals. To make no allowances for bone and wooden weapons as the weapon of choice is to assume that the world is not as bad off as it is in the original premise. There need to be allowances for heat stroke, water deprivation, and other hazards if one is to model Athas closely.

If that isn't taken into account, then it does not do a successful job of modelling Athas in 3E.

 

[Dragonblade]

I may have got carried away a little, but I love Dark Sun. Back in the day when Dark sun was around, the setting was created first and the rules were changed to fit the setting.

This is the way it should be for every setting. I don't think the rules should be arbitrarily changed, but they should always be made to serve the needs of the setting. Dark Sun was originally like this.

Now its the other way around. Dark Sun has been remade to serve the rules without any consideration as to whether it makes sense or not. When I opened up my Dragon and read that article, I felt like Clark Griswold getting his Jelly of the Month club letter: "If this isn't the biggest bag over the head, punch in the face..."

For example, Arcane spellcasting is supposed to rare. The reason its rare is because out of control magic use has decimated the planet. The sorcerer kings hunt down non-sanctioned mages upon penalty of death, and the common people hate and fear magic users so much that if they see a mage he better run for his life so he isn't stoned or hacked to death by a mob.

This feeling was completely disregarded in Noonan's version. Bard's casting spells completely changes not only what the original Dark Sun bard was like, but further erodes some of the uniqueness of the setting.

Paladins are the same way. People who know me, know that I love paladins. I'm right up there with the SHARK crowd of seeing the paladin as that paragon of holy warrior badassness, clothed in gleaming plate mail and riding forth to smite the enemies of their god and church. Very appropriate for D&D games based on a pseudo-European setting. Not for Dark Sun.

I can appreciate balance as much as the next person. I'm not saying the Bard class shouldn't be compensated for lack of spellcasting. Heck, adding psionic abilities and powers would have been fine. Or you could give half-giants a high ECL to offset their enhanced Strength and toughness. But to deliberately water them down in the name of balance or so that they can be played at level 1 is just so utterly wrong and stupid, I am at a loss as to describe how I really feel without exploding into expletives and profanity.

Its the revised Dark Sun setting strength chart fiasco all over again. Half-giants are NOT the equivalent of a half-orc!!

I could go on but I think you all get where I'm coming from.

 

[Vocenoctum]

So there are LOTS of changes to the world, but they weren't for change's sake, they all reinforced the apocalyptic style of the world. To include paladins with noble ideas is to presume that there is enough food, shelter, and water to let someone pursue altruistic goals. To make no allowances for bone and wooden weapons as the weapon of choice is to assume that the world is not as bad off as it is in the original premise. There need to be allowances for heat stroke, water deprivation, and other hazards if one is to model Athas closely.

If that isn't taken into account, then it does not do a successful job of modelling Athas in 3E.

The "third chapter" in Dragon is equipment. They detail different materials for weapons & armor. I didn't look through it much, except to see that gythka have different stats again, and chatkcha's art now looks like 2e again, thankfully. No mention of returning, but they don't give the description, merely pointing to Exp Psi.

Natural Hazards aren't in there. It's too bad Frostbite is first, if they did a desert book it'd tie in well.

I think DS did have the presumption that the characters were somewhat altruistic though, it was a harsh setting, but that doesn't mean people can't try to better the common person. That's what the metaplot was mostly about. IMO,

 

[Psion]

Gimme prestige classes! Just hold off with all the *&(^*(&^ core classes!

 

[Vocenoctum]

I may have got carried away a little, but I love Dark Sun. Back in the day when Dark sun was around, the setting was created first and the rules were changed to fit the setting.

This is the way it should be for every setting. I don't think the rules should be arbitrarily changed, but they should always be made to serve the needs of the setting. Dark Sun was originally like this.

If they were writing a book, I'd agree. Since it was a trio of articles measuring 30ish pages, I'll have to say your expectations were a little high.

For example, Arcane spellcasting is supposed to rare. The reason its rare is because out of control magic use has decimated the planet. The sorcerer kings hunt down non-sanctioned mages upon penalty of death, and the common people hate and fear magic users so much that if they see a mage he better run for his life so he isn't stoned or hacked to death by a mob.

This feeling was completely disregarded in Noonan's version. Bard's casting spells completely changes not only what the original Dark Sun bard was like, but further erodes some of the uniqueness of the setting.

They address it in both Dragon & Dungeon,mentioning that only around Tyr are wizards actually tolerated.

I can appreciate balance as much as the next person. I'm not saying the Bard class shouldn't be compensated for lack of spellcasting. Heck, adding psionic abilities and powers would have been fine. Or you could give half-giants a high ECL to offset their enhanced Strength and toughness. But to deliberately water them down in the name of balance or so that they can be played at level 1 is just so utterly wrong and stupid, I am at a loss as to describe how I really feel without exploding into expletives and profanity.

A psionic bard could have worked great actually. Their abilities fall under the purview of mind control and illusion, so it's a nice fit.

None of the races are available at 1st level anyway. I do think it's implied that the PCs start at 4th level. They could have built a half0giant at ECL+3 I suppose. The Thrikreen is ECL 4, but with 2 HD can still operate.