Dragon No. 319 arrived today

I've always seen 'altruistic warriors in a land cursed by evil' to be some of the most compelling heroic characters around. Because they're idealistic, but fatalistic at the same time. They know their fight is pointless, useless, a drop of water on the solar flame of evil that scortches their world....but they fight the fight, not because they can win, but because it is the right thing to do.
 

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Dragonblade said:
Now, I just need to get together a mob of like-minded fans, some pitch forks, torches, signs with catchy slogans, and storm Paizo's offices for making a mess of my favorite setting!! ;)

I'll get the tar, you bring the feathers, and I'll meet you in Seattle.
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
I've always seen 'altruistic warriors in a land cursed by evil' to be some of the most compelling heroic characters around. Because they're idealistic, but fatalistic at the same time. They know their fight is pointless, useless, a drop of water on the solar flame of evil that scortches their world....but they fight the fight, not because they can win, but because it is the right thing to do.

That's sort of the antithesis of the feel of DS characters though. Those characters usually fight very bravely and die very quickly.

On Athas, the name of the game is survive. People who throw themselves at evil forces much more powerful than themselves, knowing they can't win, are regarded as madmen, and no one wants to be around them. Martyrs are all well and good, but heroes need to survive, to make a difference where they can.
 

Dragonblade said:
I was recently made aware of this post by Dave Noonan over at the Wizard's boards:

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I’m the guy who wrote the Dark Sun rules. I was as surprised as anyone by some of what I read in Dragon #319. And I strongly disagree with some of the decisions the Dragon editors made.
It’s their right to make those decisions—they bought my work fair and square. But if you’re starting a Dark Sun game, you might find my perspective useful. I’ve run 3E Dark Sun since late 1999, playing out of three-ring binders, and it’s far and away my favorite setting. Along the way I’ve had plenty of opportunities to goof up as DM—and in the process learn how the core rules and the Dark Sun setting interact.

Characters
My original manuscript said this: “There are no bards, monks, paladins, or sorcerers in Dark Sun.” I stand by that 100%.

• Paladins simply have no place in the setting, as any longtime fan of Dark Sun knows. If I had a player at my Dark Sun table who really wanted to play a paladin, I’d write an elemental crusader prestige class or adapt the holy liberator, maybe in an antislavery direction.
• Monks pose serious balance problems that aren’t immediately apparent but emerge once your Dark Sun campaign has been going a while. In short, they’re way too good in a campaign that places significant limits on armor (which the monk doesn’t have to worry about) and weapons (which the monk also doesn’t have to worry about). Removing monks also creates more design space for psychic warriors.
• Rather than a bard base class, I wrote an “athasian bard” prestige class full of mysterious, assassin-like goodness. It didn’t see print.
• Sorcerers crowd the psion’s design space too much. If there’s one thing that playtesting taught me, it’s that Dark Sun works best when psions are the best spontaneous casters in the game. (And I’m baffled why sorcerers would pretend to be wizards.)

Weapons
My original manuscript had a weapon breakage rule that didn’t see print. Without it, I’m not sure that there’s much point to the different weapon materials, because character wealth will quickly ascend beyond the point where inferior weapons matter. With the rules as published, I imagine everyone will buy metal or blood obsidian weapons right away and ignore the other choices. After all, a metal longsword is still only 150 cp in the published rules, and it’ll last indefinitely.

In my playtests and my ongoing campaign, I got satisfying results if PCs start with obsidian/stone, bone, or bronze weapons and have to contend with inferior weapons and breakage for the first few levels of the campaign. Then the PCs earn their metal weapons, but they still have to worry about breakage when they’re unlucky or facing sundering enemies. If your Dark Sun game derives a similar result, I think you’ll enjoy it immensely.

I also think it’s worthwhile to distinguish costwise between all-metal weapons (like swords) and hafted metal weapons (like axes). And if you use blood obsidian in your own game, here's a tip: it might make an interesting component in some monsters' DR.

Armor
The published armor rules are also much different than the ones in my manuscript. I wrote some detailed “hot weather”rules that were punishing to PCs who wore heavy armor. The published rules don’t provide a disincentive for wearing heavy armor; a typical PC will be able to afford iron full plate easily by 7th or 8th level. If you want a traditional Dark Sun game where most PCs are lightly armored, consider adding some teeth to the Heat Dangers section on page 303 of the DMG and send the metal armor prices through the roof.

As an aside, people who really like tinkering with their game could ramp down the character wealth by level (DMG table 5-1) in their Dark Sun game. It’d further emphasize the harsh, metal-poor nature of the world. But character wealth by level touches many other aspects of the game, from class-by-class balance to challenge ratings, so tread carefully. You’ll probably have to refigure CR for monsters based on your own playtesting, which is time-consuming (but kind of fun). I left character wealth unchanged because I wanted DMs to be able to port new monsters and other game elements into their Dark Sun game without extensive playtesting. But if you’re interested in tinkering, I think it’s an idea worth exploring.

While I don’t agree with some of the decisions the Dragon editors made, it’s absolutely their right to make those decisions. And fundamentally, you’re in charge of what goes on at your game table, so do what you want. No matter what rules set you use, I’ll just be glad if you’re playing Dark Sun.

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My apologies, David. I was not aware that Paizo changed what you had submitted.

Now, I just need to get together a mob of like-minded fans, some pitch forks, torches, signs with catchy slogans, and storm Paizo's offices for making a mess of my favorite setting!! ;)
Hmm, interesting post. Would someone be good enough to post a link?
 



On Athas, the name of the game is survive. People who throw themselves at evil forces much more powerful than themselves, knowing they can't win, are regarded as madmen, and no one wants to be around them. Martyrs are all well and good, but heroes need to survive, to make a difference where they can.
Which is why 'lawful stupid' doesn't work. But paladins still do -- to survive is perhaps fighting the biggest evil that the planet has faced...

I mean, if I can imagine druids preserving a still-undefiled forest, is it really that big of a stretch to imagine paladins allying with them to defend their lands? I'd say no.
 

The paladin doesn't work in DS for a number of reasons.
1) Where do their powers come from? There are no gods and no divine forces of good in the Athasian cosmology. You can certainly have a paladin-like character, but without the special abilities such a character is simply a LG fighter with a strict personal code.
2) The code. No paladin will be able to get very far before violating the class' code of conduct, and once that happens the character is no longer a paladin.
 

Spatula said:
The paladin doesn't work in DS for a number of reasons.
1) Where do their powers come from? There are no gods and no divine forces of good in the Athasian cosmology. You can certainly have a paladin-like character, but without the special abilities such a character is simply a LG fighter with a strict personal code.
2) The code. No paladin will be able to get very far before violating the class' code of conduct, and once that happens the character is no longer a paladin.

Just some fun hypothetical answers.

1) Why not the Avangion? After all, the Dragon-Kings gave spells to Templars.

2) Well, the only ones I see violating the code are if they go the Lawful Stupid intepretation of it. Any first level paladin is going to die/fail their code of conduct if they know of any 'great evil' and don't pursue it. The act with honor is probably the 'hardest' part to enforce for a DS world, but the dichotomy may well fit. The code may also come into conflict with itself (respect legitimate authority and the punish those that harm or threaten innocents).

To me, the paladins are no more out of place on Athas than the Avangion really.
 

reiella said:
Just some fun hypothetical answers.
1) Why not the Avangion? After all, the Dragon-Kings gave spells to Templars.
The avangions are one possible source, but they would have to have recontacted the elemental spirits who gave the Sorcerer-kings their power in the first place. The SK's can't grant templars spells by right, or by their nature as half-dragons - it was part of an outsider pact they made centuries ago, and the outsiders are no longer around to contact.

2) Well, the only ones I see violating the code are if they go the Lawful Stupid intepretation of it.

Actually, there are other rules in place in 2E that altered this. Anyone suffering from great thirst may have to make saving throws to avoid doing things that are against their natures, such as resorting to violence against their fellow party to get food and water - the rules simulated the "Donner Party" effect. Is a paladin a paladin any more after he's just killed someone to drink their blood for water? Is a character even good? It could happen in the original Dark Sun rules.

To me, the paladins are no more out of place on Athas than the Avangion really.

To me, the Avangions are out of place, also, but that's a topic for another thread, one that drones endlessly about some rather poor changes made in the revised Dark Sun boxed set that no one wants to hear right now. :)

I will concede, that, as someone earlier said, I could see maybe a couple hundred years down the road that "proto-paladins" might arise, and Dave Noonan makes a good point about using Holy liberators from Defenders of the Faith - they, or better yet the Champion of Freedom from Arcana Unearthed would fit hand-in-glove in Dark Sun. But I just don't see them fitting in right now. I'm likely going to skip this issue entirely, pending a once-over in the bookstore to see if I'm not missing anything else. Next time I run a Dark Sun game, it looks like athas.org is definitely going to be the best place to go for rules for it.
 

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